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We have just got back from the motorhome show at Shepton Mallet.  Over lunch we decided that motorhomes are just not practical - personal opinion I know but having spoken to people in France this year with them there seemed to be a huge issue with taking them anywhere and parking them.   We saw £60000 homes just sat on site going nowhere, what a waste!

Well then we stumbled across the 5th wheel companies offerings and fell in love immediately.  They seem to offer the best of both worlds.  You get a huge living space with electric slide out sides, but the flexibility of being able to tow a bendable vehicle that then demounts on site leaving you with a wagon to run around in and park anywhere! 

If we get to go travelling we know where we will be heading - North Wales to order one of these!

Anybody have any experience of them?  thoughts on the subject?

Ali

My blue face is looking very miserable now........

Ali

Hi

I have also considered the 5th wheel option But!!!! whats the legal stand point dont you need a class 1 licence even if its under 7.5ton

No apparently not.  I checked this with the lady at the show and providing you have had a licence pre 1997 I think it was you can drive it on a normal car licence.

Ali

Well then we stumbled across the 5th wheel companies offerings and fell in love immediately.  They seem to offer the best of both worlds.  You get a huge living space with electric slide out sides, but the flexibility of being able to tow a bendable vehicle that then demounts on site leaving you with a wagon to run around in and park anywhere! 

---

Bit like a caravan really........

Well Snowy

If thats right about the licence i think i may well look even more seriously at this but i think i will check with the old bill before i spent 20/30k on a outfit.

Do you have any web site address for the fith wheelers

Cheers Gromitt.

But jondeu is not a motor home also a caravan with onboard engine and steering wheel.

fifthwheelco.co.uk

They are very helpful there.  We sat talking to the lady at the Bath and West the other weekend for ages and she was extremely helpful and informative.

Well yes, they are a bit like a caravan I guess but more maneouverable as they bend more than a standard towing hitch and also extremely spacious.

Ali

Here is the answer on the FAQ from the above site about who can drive one:-

Ali

Hey Jondeau - not quite so nickable as a caravan though eh!  Not many people have access to the correct coupling to nick it off your drive or out of the motorway services (see thread under caravans about people being too scared to leave them) so I would say in this scumbag ridden society that was a huge positive.

I have also yet to enter a caravan that has quite the wow factor and space of a fifth wheeler.  Have you been in one?  If not, next time there is a show near you I really would recommend you do because they are quite something else in my humble opinion.

Ali

Sorry, I was being a bit flippant.

It's always struck me that with those sort of things you are severly restricting your options.

If the towing unit breaks down you're well and truly stuck.

If either the trailor or tractor unit was damaged or written off, how much would the bit that was left be worth then ?

So no.....it's not quite the same as a caravan.

JD

Thanks for the 5th wheel site Snowy

Also never thought about the nickability factor good point you made there i have had a quick look round inside one that belonged to a mate of my son inlaw we were at a race meeting and like you i was well impressed but never gave it another thought because i thought a HGV Class1 was required.

Hey jondeau dont worry man i dont think you upset Snowy.

Cheers from Gromitt

Nah I ain't upset - got more important issues to deal with right now that are far more upsetting!!

Good point about the towing vehicle but of course it would be hugely inconvenient if your towing car broke down/was written off too and like other things in life, it is something you would get around one way or another.

Whether they will ever really take off in the UK who knows, of course they are mainly an American thing from what i can see, closely followed by the ozzies.

Like anything, it is horse for courses and everything has its pros and cons.  That's why some of us choose tents, some of us 'vans, some of us motorhomes etc etc.  What suits one doesn't suit another.  We camped this summer due to family illness and an inability to pre book something so we had to be spontaneous.

In the past I have had a Bailey Clifton and before that a Thomson Mini Glen - ah, sweet!!  But I just like the space a fifth wheeler offers and in particular we are looking at taking a year out eventually and it would be ideal as we would have lots of space without being on top of each other for a year (ahem, no pun intended)!!

I think, Gromitt, the reason you don't need an HGV licence is because it is below 7.5 tonnes.  If it went over that then you would but on a standard car licence pre 1997 with no restrictions on it you can tow up to 7.5 tonnes.

They had it paired with a great pick up truck, um, I think it was a Navarra all singing all dancing and it looked fab the other weekend.  They custom make them too so you can specify size, content etc from what I can gather.  They had a prototype one with a huge window in the roof above the bed for star gazing - very romantic!

I would like to see them become more popular here, be interesting to report back in 10 year's time huh!

Ali

I asked Snowy747 about the legal aspects of the 5th wheel i have done a little digging and come up with this to add to his info.  

Extract of a letter received from the Department of Transport, UK, October 1995.

All vehicles and trailers used on our roads (UK) must comply with the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/078): as amended and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796): also as amended.  These Regulations set the overall parameters and technical specifications such as width, length, weights, braking systems, lights etc, with which vehicles must comply if they are to be used on our roads.

The maximum dimensions allowable for the fifth wheel trailer when towed by a motor car or light van are 2.3 metres (7 feet 6 inches) in width and 7 metres (approximately 23 feet) in length.  However, if the towing vehicle is a motor vehicle with a gross weight exceeding 3,500 kgs, (Heavy Duty License required for this) the maximum permitted width becomes 2.5 metres (8 feet 2V2. inches) and 12 metres (approximately 39 feet 4 inches) in length providing the trailer has at least 4 wheels.

I dont disagree with Kon Tiki about the freedom to be free to travel where and when you like i think that is very much the objective of all who go for the caravan or the motorhome or tent, trailer and the like, but the only problem i see with a motor home that will comfortably suit a family of four is it can be of a size where it is very difficult to go into some city's, towns even some villages, local places of intrest, and out of the way places and find parking either in Europe or the UK, unless like me you consider pulling a small run about car behind now this would be my solution if i go for a large RV.

But as Snowy states with a 5th wheeler you can have the best of both worlds with plenty of room in a fith wheel with slide outs and a handy run about in the crew cab pickup to nip into town and places of intrest ect ect and if you dont like where you have parked up in 5minutes you can couple up and be away about the same amount of time as a large rv.

Over the years i have had a couple of caravans and a couple of small RV's but as we are planning to sell the house now the kids have grown up and spend two or three years revisiting and touring Europe i am trying to decide which setup will be the best for this as obviously my wife will need lots of room for here wardrobe and shoes, "only joking ladies" but we will obviously need as much space as i can either legally drive or pull for this excursion as it will really full timing for at least 2 years.Hence my intrest in Snowys thread and my need to no the legal requirements for the UK and Europe, i have now found the full DVLA legal needs and posted them below hope they will be of intrest.

Cheers Gromitt 

MAXIMUM AUTHORISED MASS (MAM)

In this reference is made to the maximum authorised mass (MAM) of vehicles and trailers. This should be taken to mean the permissible maximum weight, also known as the gross vehicle weight.

1. CAR LICENCES HELD BEFORE 1 JANUARY 1997

All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM. They also have entitlement to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kgs MAM.

Drivers who hold subcategory C1+E - limited to 8.25 tonnes MAM, may apply for provisional entitlement to the new subcategory C1+E, in order to take and pass the test which will increase their combined vehicle and trailer entitlement to 12 tonnes MAM. It is not necessary to gain subcategory C1 entitlement first but drivers have to meet higher medical standards, and pass both the category C theory test and the subcategory C1+E practical test. 

LARGE GOODS VEHICLE AND PASSENGER CARRYING VEHICLE LICENCES HELD BEFORE 1 JANUARY 1997

Since 1 January 1997 all drivers who hold category C or D entitlement have been limited to trailers up to 750kgs MAM; Category C+E or D+E must be held in order to tow trailers in excess of this.

2.  CAR DRIVING LICENCE FIRST OBTAINED SINCE 1 JANUARY 1997

Drivers who passed a car test on or after 1 January 1997 are required to pass an additional driving test in order to gain entitlement to category B+E and all larger vehicles. In addition to the new driving tests, drivers of vehicles which fall within subcategories C1, C1+E, D1 and D1+E also have to meet higher medical standards.

Category B:
Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to 8 passenger seats

Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) OR a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

For example:

                                 i.            a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle.

Whereas

                                ii.            the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle.

Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle’s handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold.

As for towing caravans, existing general guidance recommends that the laden weight of the caravan does not exceed 85% of the unladen weight of the car. In the majority of cases, caravans and small trailers towed by cars should be within the new category B threshold.

Note - An exemption from the driver licensing trailer limit allows a category B licence holder to tow a broken down vehicle from a position where it would otherwise cause danger or obstruction to other road users.

By passing a category B test National Categories F (tractor), K (pedestrian controlled vehicle) and P (moped) continue to be added automatically.

Category B+E:
Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM towing trailers over 750kgs MAM

Category B+E allows vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM to be combined with trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM. In order to gain this entitlement new category B licence holders have to pass a further practical test for category B+E. There is no category B+E theory test. For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E.

Subcategory C1:
Medium sized goods vehicles 3.5 - 7.5 tonnes MAM

Subcategory C1 vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM allowing a combination of up to 8.25 tonnes MAM. But unlike category B, the 750kgs MAM trailer weight limit is an absolute limit.

In order to gain this entitlement category B licence holders have to meet higher medical standards and pass both theory and practical tests for subcategory C1.

Subcategory C1+E:
Medium sized goods vehicles 3.5 - 7.5 tonnes MAM plus trailer over 750kgs MAM

Subcategory C1+E allows vehicles to be combined with a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the combination does not exceed 12 tonnes MAM and the laden weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle.

In order to gain this entitlement category B licence holders have to pass further tests - subcategory C1 (theory and practical) followed by C1+E practical. There is no subcategory C1+E theory test. It will not be possible to go directly from category B to subcategory C1+E.

Note - Because EC Regulations limit drivers aged under 21 years to driving vehicles or combinations which weigh no more than 7.5 tonnes MAM, drivers under the age of 21 are not allowed to drive subcategory C1+E vehicles up to 12 tonnes MAM. But 18 year old drivers are allowed to take a test for subcategory C1+E which will allow trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM to be towed. Entitlement is limited to a combination weight of 7.5 tonnes MAM until the driver reaches 21 years, at which time the balance of 12 tonnes MAM entitlement automatically becomes effective.  

Subcategory D1 Passenger carrying vehicles 9 - 16 passenger seats

Subcategory D1 vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM. There is no upper weight limit for subcategory D1 vehicles.

In order to gain this entitlement category B licence holders have to meet higher medical standards and pass both theory and practical tests for subcategory D1.

Subcategory D1+E - Passenger carrying vehicles 9-16 passenger seats with a trailer above 750kgs MAM

Subcategory D1+E vehicles may be combined with trailers over 750kgs provided the combination does not exceed 12 tonnes MAM and the laden weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle. The trailer must not be used for the carriage of passengers

In order to gain this entitlement category B licence holders have to pass further tests - subcategory D1 (theory and practical) followed by D1+E practical. There is no subcategory D1+E theory test. It is not possible to go directly from category B to subcategory D1+E.

Category C - Large goods vehicles above 3.5 tonnes MAM

Category C vehicles may be combined with trailers up to 750kgs MAM. The Directive does not impose an upper weight limit threshold for category C vehicles and the national limits will apply.

In order to gain this entitlement category B licence holders have to pass theory and practical tests for category C. (It is not necessary to gain subcategory C1 entitlement first.)

Category C+E Large goods vehicles above 3.5 tonnes MAM towing trailer over 750kgs MAM

Category C+E vehicles may be combined with a trailer over 750kgs MAM. The Directive does not impose an upper weight limit for category C+E and national limits apply.

In order to gain this entitlement category B licence holders have to pass further tests - category C (theory and practical) followed by C+E practical. There is no category C+E theory test. (It is not necessary to gain subcategory C1 or C1+E entitlement first).

Category D - Passenger carrying vehicle with more than 8 seats

Category D vehicles may be combined with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM. The Directive does not impose an upper weight limit for category D vehicles and national limits apply.

In order to gain this entitlement category B licence holders have to pass theory and practical tests for category D. (It is not necessary to gain subcategory D1 entitlement first).

Category D+E - Passenger carrying vehicle with more than 8 seats with trailer over 750kgs MAM

Category D+E vehicles may be combined with a trailer over 750kgs MAM. The Directive does not impose an upper weight limit for category D+E and national limits apply.

In order to gain this entitlement category B licence holders have to pass further tests - category D (theory and practical) followed by D+E practical. There is no category D+E theory test. (It is not necessary to gain subcategory D1 or D1+E entitlement first).

3.      UPGRADING ENTITLEMENT FOR TRAILERS

In general, an additional driving test is required for each category or subcategory of entitlement. But there are certain exceptions to this where drivers have already passed one test which involves trailer entitlement for a larger or equivalent sized vehicle.

This means that passing a test for subcategory C1+E or D1+E upgrades category B entitlement to B+E.

A test pass for subcategory C1+E upgrades subcategory D1, if held, to D1+E. But a test pass for subcategory D1+E does not upgrade subcategory C1 to C1+E because the trailer size required for a subcategory D1+E test is smaller than that required for a subcategory C1+E test.

Passing a test for category C+E upgrades category B entitlement to B+E and also confers entitlement to subcategory C1 and C1+E and, if category D or subcategory D1 is held, these are upgraded to category D+E or subcategory D1+E.

A test passed for category D+E upgrades category B and subcategory D1 to category B+E and subcategory D1+E respectively. But it does not upgrade category C or subcategory C1 entitlements because the trailer size required for a category D+E test is smaller than that required for a category C+E or subcategory C1+E test.

4.      PROVISIONAL TRAILER ENTITLEMENT

Since 1 January 1997 drivers are no longer able to sit a test in a heavy vehicle/trailer combination (e.g. category C+E or D+E) unless they have first passed a test and obtained a full licence in the corresponding rigid vehicle (e.g. category C or D).

This means that although drivers may have been driving a vehicle and trailer combination legitimately, under “L” plates, they are not permitted to sit a trailer test using such a combination until a test has been passed in a rigid vehicle and a full licence obtained for that category.

Further information on driving tests or minimum test vehicle requirements may be obtained from the Driving Standards Agency (DSA), at Stanley House, 56 Talbot Street, Nottingham, NG1 5GU. For general enquiries please ring 0115 901 2515/6, to book a theory or practical test please ring 
0870 010 1372. 

This information is not intended to be a definitive statement of law.

re: Fifth Wheel Company - fantastic people extremely helpfull and really excellent build quality, fittings, storage space, optional extras - we have just ordered ours for next year when we intend travelling UK and Europe for a "few years"  We spent a while with one of their earlier customers at Newbury Show this summer - they have been living in the van permanently for a year and were full of praise. We also spoke with another couple now living in Italy who spent a year in the van touring Italy looking for a new home/business - again they could not give high enough praise to their Celtic Rambler and the Fifth Wheel Company folks. Lots of advantages as others have mentioned like less risk of theft, seperate vehicle when parked up, ability to wild camp, great stability while towing because of the truck like connection, the fifth wheel, great air brakes.