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Subject Topic: mirrors
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20/4/2008 at 1:42pm
 Location: lake district
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Can anyone shed light on this for me.

The subject is european approval

A recent letter and answer in the C&CC magazine suggests that it is illegal to have mirrors which do not have the approvalstamped on them. It is an E inside a circle.

I can find no other reference to this except the Milenco web site.

Anyone know if this true?

I do understand that mirrors nedd to be a certain standard for safet etc but would have thought that dealers/manufacturers wouldnt sell unapproved mirrors.

I bought some new mirrors about 3 months ago and they are not stamped.

 



20/4/2008 at 2:56pm
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Al

There was a post on here no too long ago about this. Seems that Argos has recalled their mirrors.The people on the forum had these Argos mirrors but were saying they were not returning them becasue they done the job just fine

Not much help I know but you could search for the thread and read all the replies

 



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Beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder

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20/4/2008 at 6:28pm
 Location: Llangennech Nr Llanelli S Wales.
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Its something to do with how the mirror shatters if its hit.

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21/4/2008 at 9:22am
 Location: Cornwall
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The Milenco web site blurb is wrong on at least one point. They say that you must have two mirrors while the law says that, under certain circumstances, you might only need one. Here's a PDF of the relevant legislation and AFAICT a car and caravan combination comes under item 8 of the table on page 9 (but it's not completely clear, so see what you think!) The law says that obligatory mirrors must conform to the specified part of the specified EC directives, but is silent on optional mirrors and devices for indirect vision that are not mirrors (e.g. reversing cameras). Presumably, it is these EC directives that require mirrors to be "e-marked".

FWIW, all my mirrors (I have three pairs accumulated over the last decade or so) have what I thought to be an "e-mark". This is a lower-case "e" followed by a number included in a rectangle (e.g. [e11] or [e3], which Lucas say means the product comes from UK or Italy respectively). This mark is followed by a number that gives further information about the approval. This link shows what an e-mark looks like and gives some additional info.

HTH,

Geoff


21/4/2008 at 10:49am
 Location: Newton le Willows LANCASHIRE
 Outfit: Burnt out wreck
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My mirrors have naff all on them..they do the job just fine thank you.

Nanny state...GET OUT OF MY LIFE !!



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21/4/2008 at 11:30am
 Location: Cornwall
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Quote: Originally posted by Safeway56 on 21/4/2008

My mirrors have naff all on them..they do the job just fine thank you.

Nanny state...GET OUT OF MY LIFE !!



I don't think it's state nannyism; it's more to do with protectionism and Government greed.

Since only Europeans can CE mark or E mark goods, it follows that non-Europeans cannot sell goods for which marking is required. If (say) the Americans or Chinese want to sell such goods (say, towing mirrors) to Europeans, they can't do so directly. There are ways around this (e.g. establish a European "division" who can legally mark these goods and sell them to EU customers), but at the least it ensures that one or more EU Governments get some tax money in the form of VAT and perhaps import duties.


21/4/2008 at 2:11pm
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not looked at mine, but they came from halfords, and i would expect a high street chain to sell things approved, I might look then wonder what they would say if i took them back anyway.


21/4/2008 at 9:26pm
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I think I was the first person to get the (not approved by the Gestapo) Argos mirrors without the correct "E" and I am using them. I couldn't care less!!. 


22/4/2008 at 9:20am
 Location: Shropshire North Wales borders
 Outfit: Adria Win
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I don't use mine at the mo' cos my little caravan isn't very wide, but I've had them years and haven't a clue whether or not they have an "e" on them. If I need to use them in the future then I shall, providing they fit on the car and give me a good view.

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Caz
If you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, just keep going till you go round the bend.


22/4/2008 at 4:58pm
 Location: Southampton
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Best thing to do is to stay in this country then you won't have to worry about getting EU stamped approved mirrors.

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24/4/2008 at 8:51am
 Location: Milton Keynes
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Hello everyone.

Just to confirm the comments by pajaholic are incorrect. We know these standards are difficult to understand and easy to misinterpret. We do get lots of help from the Department of Transport, the Vehicle Certification Agency and many other resources in translating these documents. You do have to have 2 towing mirrors and be able to see 4 meters either side of the Caravan at a distance of 20 meters behind the caravans.

We have publicised the legal requirement for e-marking the stop the caravaning community from being duped into buying substandard dangerous mirrors that actually cost as much as safe ones.

If you had seen how a dangerous mirror (non-e marked without safety glass) breaks on impact and seen how the glass can be fired at the passenger or driver (hot summers day, windows down) of the vehicle when impacted you would not use them. This is also one of the most common incidents when towing.

We make and sell perfectly safe and legal e-marked mirrors from as little as £5.24 each. Many caravanners are paying a lot more than this for dangerous mirrors.

Please tow safely



24/4/2008 at 9:11am
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Thanks for clarifying the issue. If I need to use mine again I will check for the E mark.

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Caz
If you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, just keep going till you go round the bend.


24/4/2008 at 9:28am
 Location: Cornwall
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Quote: Originally posted by Milenco on 24/4/2008
Just to confirm the comments by pajaholic are incorrect.
For the record, I quoted the actual legislation, The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use)(Amendment)(No. 4) Regulations 2005, which states:
Quote:
(i) At least one exterior mirror fitted on the offside of the vehicle, and
(ii) at least one interior mirror, unless a mirror so fitted would give the driver no view to the rear of the vehicle; and
(iii) at least one exterior mirror fitted on the nearside of the vehicle unless an interior mirror gives the driver an adequate view to the rear.
That seems fairly easy to interpret to me and doesn't seem to support your claims. Accordingly, I'd be interested in knowing precisely which legislation requires two towing mirrors, particularly since that's not what the 2005 regs require.

Geoff


24/4/2008 at 10:57am
 Location: lake district
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Thanks to you all especiaaly pajaholic.

I agrree with most comments about the safety of mirrors especially regarding other road users and I would not intentially use unapproved mirrors. I still come back to my origional question about where does it say that mirrors have to be stamped with the approval code?

I have a pair of Reich Super mirrors which are unmarked but the box has a CE marking. I can hardly be expected to carry the empty boxes around with me Just in case I am stopped by the police. By the way I only bought thes 4 months ago from a reputable dealer although it is possible that I have been offloaded with old stock.

Milenco are quite positive on their web site that to drive without e marked mirrors can carry a fine of up to £1000 and 3 points..Again where does this come from?

If my mirrors are illegal I will change them.



24/4/2008 at 11:36am
 Location: Cornwall
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FWIW, if the offence committed is "using a vehicle in an unsafe condition", the punishment can be 3 points plus a fine of up to £2,500 (£5,000 if you're towing with a goods vehicle, minibus, etc.) For very serious offences, disqualification is also an option, but that's unlikely in the case of missing on non-compliant towing mirrors. This is imposed by the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 and may have been amended since. That said, the only references I could find from motoring lawyers still gives 3 points plus a level 4 fine.

However, this disagrees with Milenco, who say it's punishable by a fine of up to £1,000 (i.e. level 3) so I'd be interested to know the actual legislation.

Geoff


24/4/2008 at 7:26pm
 Location: lake district
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 helo pajaholic again

Ive searched the internet and european rules and have come to the conclusion that whilst I agree that mirrors need to be of a standard the statement by milenco that mirrors MUST be stamped is at best misleading.

If im wrong then perhaps the milenco person who replied above can let us know the justification of their statement that mirrors must be marked.




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