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Hi . Dave-t has posted on another thread about his horrifying experience using a Cobb in a nylon tent with a SIG. I am quite concerned about it and not sure of the wider risk management lessons for us all.  So I feel it needs a thread of its own and a bit more discussion and input. Hence me starting this thread and I’ve copied some of the previous posts into this one.

Here’s Dave-t’s first post,

“We have just come back from a week on Dartmoor and it - was to say the least - an "experience". After a 5 hour drive and setting up the tent we had problems getting the electrics working but finally had a meal - at the local pub - and off to bed. Only to be woken by colleagues at work with technical problems. The phone calls went on into the early hours but finally got off to sleep at about 1am. Waking up at about 4am we realised the air bed had leaked - and there is nothing worse that than a half inflated air bed! Sunday was another day with a nice day out and returned to site and cooked a nice chicken and pepper stir fry on the Cobb.

NOW the problems started!

A friend tells me that he takes his cobb into his tent as exta heating so - even though I am supposed to be intellegent - I did the same. Sitting for a couple of hours reading and chatting with the cobb a great source of heat for our toes. It was bitterly cold outside and a frost was expected.

We started to feel tired at about 9pm so a quick trip down to the toilet block before bed was in order. On the way back both me and OH said we felt unwell but thought nothing more and hit the sack. We must have "passed out" fairly quickly and I experienced what can only be described as very strange dreams which became a nighmare. At 2am I woke feeling VERY unwell and decided to get up - but I could not move. I was in horrendous pain  and had not got a clue where I was. The OH was in an even worse state feeling very sick and again could not move. Conversation was bizarre and neither of us were making any sense.

Eventually I got hold of my phone and, after trying several times, managed to get hold of a work colleague who said I was talking  He managed to call my son who called me. Again I had not got a clue where I was. I only knew I was in exteme pain, could not move and was feeling very sick - and the wife was no better and started projectile vomiting inside the sleeping pod - NICE.   Eventually we managed between us to get an ambulance to us at about 4am with the crew managing to sort us out. The problem??

Carbon Monoxide poising

 DON'T TAKE YOUR COBB INTO YOUR TENT

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Regards
Dave
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"Live to tell about it"  “

And some of the responses,

“OMG Dave what a terrible experience. I'm sure you could get carbon monoxide from gas heaters too if not enough ventilation . A tent with a sig is like a balloon , if not given adequate ventilation it will hold the fumes I expect. 
Debbie”

“I think that that is the main problem. We have a Khyam Chatsworth with SIG and therfore nowhere for the gas to go. It must have built up and as we lay in the pod we just got worse and worse!
Dave”

“ Well I am trying not to think about it as it is quite frighteningPerhaps someone with more medical or scientific knowledge could do a quick write up including do's and dont's and get the Webmaster to post it as a sticky. One of the main problems with diagnosis is that the symptoms are similar to Gastroenteritis. As we had had a chicken stir fry for dinner the finger immediately pointed to that!
Regards
Dave”

“Quote: Originally posted by Liddenham on 12/4/2009

What a frightening experience!I guess that, with synthetic (non-breathable) tents with SIGs on the increase, this now poses a very real danger; your story has clearly illustrated that, and is food for thought for all of us....

Yes, its been on my mind a lot today since I read Dave's post. As I see it, the carbon monoxide is heavier than air so  sinks to the lowest point, and in a tent with a sewn in groundsheet and ventilation only at high level the gas will pool and accumulate at floor level as it has no way to escape. Possibly this will be more marked in a nylon rather than a cotton or poly cotton tent? Factor into this the fact that a lot of us sleep at quite a low level when we are in camping, and it starts to make using or keeping any gas appliances in your main tent (if that tent is nylon and has a SIG) look a higher risk than I would have previously thought. Or am I reading the situation wrongly?

BTW, I know that the Cabanon Hawai has low level vents - do any other SIG tents have these?”  [merry]

“Terrible thing to happen to you Dave.   I must admit though. I feel that a bit of a panic is ensuing. A cobb is NOT a gas appliance. you DONT have the valves and protections of gas appliances.   I hope you dont take this the wrong way, but it was a really silly thing to do. Im sure you know that now, and im not trying to lecture you. I am concerned that a lot of folk are now panicking about using things that are clearly designed for campers such as Gas lanterns, Stoves etc. These items are perfectly safe used for the purpose intended and also when ventilation is also used. The vents that all tents have are there for the purpose of letting air in and keeping the tent ventilated. In my opinion, if using a GAS appliance in a tent sensibly and correctly, then you are quite safe. How many people here leave fan heaters switched on all night sitting on a surface that could easily get damp? Or leave power cables sitting on groundsheets with no protection from the wet. Unfortunately it happens, we can only hope that people will learn from your experience and use equipment that can potentially kill EXACTLY as it is supposed to be used.    ….” [dezzie]

“Most new Vangos have low level ventilation
John”

Surely the thing is to

• Check equipment every time before use
• Make sure the area containing gas appliances is well ventilated (best in a kitchen tent with reasonable space between that and the main tent)
• Do not attach gas appliances to gas bottles until on site and in situ.
• Use only EHU with circuit breaker and position the sockets off-ground
• Be sensible and continue to check appliances / hoses / clips / plugs and cables during period of usage
• Keep a water-filled fire bucket by the tent (and / or take a fire extinguisher and keep it handy)
• Don't use a Cobb in a tent!

Lets hope we hear no more camping horror stories like these!

I know you can't really do this for a gas fridge, but what happened to the old camping "rule" that you turn the gas off at the regulator when not actually using it? And for preferenence keeping your gas bottle outside the tent and just running the hose under the stormflaps? I have to admit I don't do the latter any longer because I'm worried about idiots tampering with it, but the gas is always turned off when not cooking with it. And if I'm using the fridge on gas, it's by the doorway, in the porch area, or in the cooking tent, if only to keep it off the groundsheet.

I don't much like any gas in the tent, have to say. I do cook in the TT so have gas there but as we don't use a groundsheet 90% of the time there's no  ventilation problems and the cooker unit is very stable.

As for EHU, it makes my skin crawl at the thought of non-outdoor rated appliances such as fan heaters, bread machines, slow cookers and even electric blankets being left on all night, or when out for the day. I unplug everything at night or when out for the day, unless it's the blessed fridge again.

I think a lot of people just don't think, sometimes, or don't want to think, or don't understand the limitations of camping equipment compared to the domestic environment. It's different if someone understands the potential problems of using a piece of equipment and then takes a decision that the risks are worth it to them in their particular circumstances. (Take the example of a sedate couple cooking in a tent compared to a family with three toddlers...one is safer than the other, but people just say "Oh it's fine cooking in a tent...we do it". )

That's why threads like this are valuable...to make people THINK. And alert them to the potential dangers of particular pieces of equipment. And WHY, which is always an underrated topic in much discussion.

I did something nearly the same a couple of weeks ago.  After I had finished with the Bucket Style BBQ, there were there remains of the brikett embers still giving of heat. I though it a shame to waste the heat, so brought the BBQ inside. Within less than a minute the smell of amonia was so strong, I had to open the tent front remove the BBQ and let the tent air out for about ten minutes. Perhaps they add this to stop such unfortunate things as your problem. Either way, glad your all OK.

We just got back from our easter break to read on the local news that a woman died in a caravan fire not far from us and her OH escaped badly burned. No idea what caused it but it is a stark reminder to be careful with cooking etc in any camping unit

Angie

With my wife and myself still feeling unwell we sought medical advise this morning and ended up in hospital with a total of 5 hours of tests.

The conclusion is that we are lucky to be alive BUT any neurological damage that may have occured is irreversable and only time will tell. Thankfully their is no damage to our hearts.

If anyone wants some light reading this link  gives you all the bad bits. We were also given a printout from another website used by doctors but unfortunately this is a subscription only site so cannot give the link.

While a the hospital we discussed the topic in detail and here are the relavent bits

Carbon monoxide is heavier than air and will therfore lie low in a tent. If a tent has NOT got a SIG it should disipate easily. With a SIG it will get trapped. As we found out, we made matters worse by going to bed as we were effectively lying in the most poluted part of the tent - close to the floor. 

Carbon Monoxied is formed when a carbon based fuel is not burned correctly. In our case a BBQ is not actually burning - it is smouldering - and will therfore produce a lot of CO.

Any gas or liquid based fuel will - if burned correctly - produce a blue flame with no soot. Yellow flames and soot are a BAD sign

I am - in no way - trying to frighten people or cause hysteria. However, Piglet gave a shocking example and we have experienced something which could have been as bad. Therefore we all must be more aware of what we are doing. Not only in regards to gas, petrol and charcole but also in regards to mains electric.

Personally I will now confine all cooking to either outside or in a well ventilated kitchen tent. 

The list posted by Liddenham is a fantastic "safety" list and should be the basis on which we all operate.

Camping is fun and enjoyable so we should not loose sight of safety which could spoil such a fantasic lifestyle.

A couple died of carbon monoxide poisoning in an incident recently up at my local campsite. They were in a caravan which had been in storage over the winter and a mouse had made a nest in some vital flue vent.

I think the key to not suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning is ventilation, ventilation and yet more ventilation. Carbon monoxide is only dangerous if allowed to build up in confined spaces, which is why no-one ever died of carbon monoxide poisoning while using a Cobb out in the field in front of their tent, no?

Glad the folk involved here lived to tell the tale! Tho, dont ALL gas appliances have warnings to be used in well-ventilated areas?

Our new tent has a SIG. We got it because we wanted a bit more cooking space. But then i realised that cooking in the new tent - even with the much needed extra space, was going to be dodgy. So i decided to get the extension for it, to be able to safely cook under cover.

We all get complacent and are guilty of  'just not thinking' from time to time. Its that sometimes the consequences dont bear thinking about

Food for thought

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15138958?dopt=AbstractPlus

Just to confirm about the low level vents in new vangos - our killington has them.