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Subject Topic: cwdc56768
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Personiank01
06/11/2015 at 1:02pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Opensauce on 06/11/2015
As pointed out in the other thread, the case changes nothing. The Judge in this case decided the charge was fair & reasonable, had the charge been £200 he might have decided differently. The case does not set a precedent & anybody is still free to refuse to pay a charge that they consider is not fair & reasonable & the PPC can take them to court for the money if they wish.

Its actually a good decision by the judge because he was hardly going to rule that nobody could charge anything for parking because then we would have parking anarchy & by not defining a figure that was 'fair & reasonable' anybody is still able to challenge a PPC right up to the Supreme Court if they wish.



It is the amount being charged for overstaying that is unreasonable and contrary to the Unfair Terms Act.


PersonOpensauce
06/11/2015 at 1:14pm
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You answer illustrates perfectly why this will never resolved satisfactorily because there is no clear definition of the amount. If one argues that any amount at all is unfair then one will never win because no court is ever going to rule that no charge of any sort can ever be levied for parking.

If anybody believes they have been incorrectly charged for whatever reason, be it anything from incorrect signage to just an unreasonable amount charged for the time overstayed then they are still free to fight the PPC in court if it is taken that far.


Personcwdc56768
06/11/2015 at 1:38pm
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The Court determined that the charge did not offend the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regs. It merely agreed that in the circumstances of this case that £85 was reasonable. The circumstances being that it was a private car park where retailers needed to encourage a turnover of vehicles to ensure sufficient parking spaces were always available for their customers to come along and spend their money. No car parking and folk won't turn up and then shops close etc etc.

Book a holiday and then don't turn up without advance warning and you lose your deposit and which can be more than £85. That's a similar issue that we have accepted for years. I just lost the best part of £1000 because we had to cancel a holiday at the last minute due to my wife being hospitalised. That's life!

The court also took the view that motorists know that, in this day and age, if they commit a parking infringement somewhere in the region of £85 is charged.

There have been suggestions that this decision will enable other business to charge an arm and a leg for some infringement, but I am not convinced.

The "damages" still have to be proportionate. We can be shocked that £85 is considered proportionate but we are where we are.

Pressure should be brought to bear on the Government which is looking at the possibility of regulating the industry for it to do just that. If it does then I dare say that it will fix the charge at £85 or whatever the average Council parking charge is. Regulation should also include for one strike and you are out. One breach of a licence to operate and your licence is cancelled. That would stop one of the main bugbears of the industry - those who cheat or trick motorists.



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If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe    


Personiank01
06/11/2015 at 1:48pm
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Quote: Originally posted by cwdc56768 on 06/11/2015
The Court determined that the charge did not offend the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regs. It merely agreed that in the circumstances of this case that £85 was reasonable. The circumstances being that it was a private car park where retailers needed to encourage a turnover of vehicles to ensure sufficient parking spaces were always available for their customers to come along and spend their money. No car parking and folk won't turn up and then shops close etc etc.


As above that would seem to indicate that if the car park was half full most of the day then the amount of £85 is unreasonable at the time the invoice was issued?
However as you state a lot depends on the circumstances and invoices can still be challenged.
Either way it seems that the judges have opened the door for other businesses to abuse the ruling for their own financial gain as the judges effectively over ruled the Unfair Terms Act.


Personcwdc56768
06/11/2015 at 2:52pm
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As above that would seem to indicate that if the car park was half full most of the day then the amount of £85 is unreasonable at the time the invoice was issued?

No - what the Court decided was that the parking management model implemented by PE was to load the costs of management plus profit on to those who breach the Ts and Cs. It was claimed in court that about 98% of motorists abide by the rules. So those who don't get charged the £85. It's not about loss when a car park is half empty.

The business model was designed in part as a deterrent to ensure that car parking space was available by encouraging motorists not to stay too long. The model also provided 2 hours free parking. if you are going to have that benefit there needs to be an incentive to leave otherwise folk would stay for free all day.

The decision leaned heavily on a similar decision over high charges reached two years ago but no one has been complaining about that case. Further a few years back high bank charges were approved through the courts even where they were imposed as a deterrent against breaking Ts and Cs.

The fact that it is PE perhaps clouds some views as to just what the case decided and that the decision is not that much different from similar decisions over the years.



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If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe    


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PersonDavid Klyne
06/11/2015 at 4:01pm
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Just out of interest, is it right that this case has gone as far as it can? I am sure I read somewhere that it couldn't forward to the European Court of Justice. If this is correct, why is this?

David


Personorion50
06/11/2015 at 4:08pm
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David Klyne & Phil back in post now that is like the good old times

Cheers


Personcwdc56768
06/11/2015 at 4:09pm
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Yes it halts here. There will be no appeal further up the judicial chain.

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If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe    


Personcwdc56768
06/11/2015 at 4:15pm
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Interesting that I assisted a person with a defence to a PE claim (which has been stayed pending the Beavis outcome)and in the Beavis Judgment a Judge confirmed that our defence was valid.

You see you need to read a judgment on the basis of what help can it provide rather than as a critique of the Judges.

Pending the case coming to a hearing I won't say on a public forum just what it is.

Bingo!

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If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe    


PersonBill Terry
06/11/2015 at 4:59pm
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Quote: Originally posted by jeff juke on 05/11/2015
Quote: Originally posted by Bill Terry on 05/11/2015Not seen him around for a good while,anyone any info?


Bill did you have to encourage him


I knew Phil could not resist coming out the wood work

Just nice to see you bob in and out.

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Roughing it in style at Calloose caravan and camping holiday park nr St Ives.(seasonal pitch)
Its not a hangover, its wine flu!


nant mill.N/Wales
just dont go there.


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PersonOpensauce
06/11/2015 at 5:17pm
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Has the Beavis case changed anything though? All it ruled was that the charge of £85 of overstaying by an hour was reasonable. If one checks random local council websites one will see that excess parking charges range around £60-£80 with 50% reduction for payment within 14 days so not much behind PPCs.


Personcwdc56768
06/11/2015 at 6:09pm
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The only thing that it has changed now is peoples perception of what is right and what is wrong. Everyone thought that £85 was too much for a couple of minutes overstay. The Court has said "well no that's what a Council charges isn't it? You you can pay £50 instead if you pay within 14 days.

Mourino slags off a ref and gets fined £40,000 and we all agree that's fine (unless you are a Chelsea fan)

Using your mobile whilst driving is a £100 fine and that's fine. Ok there is a hint of danger here but its still breaking Ts and Cs. Incidentally the Government is proposing to up that to £200.

I posted a few posts earlier that in the Beavis case the Court followed a decision from 2 years back.

Nothing has changed - don't forget that I said this would happen back in 2013 - it just takes time to come though the system. As the Court in Beavis commented the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 set this up.









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If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe    


PersonOpensauce
06/11/2015 at 7:39pm
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I think the problem all along has been that everything has been lumped in together as 'unfair parking charges' when every case is different & has to be looked at separately.

The(for want of a better phrase)'anti parking charge movement' has always shot itself in the foot by it's failure to define clear goals & aims. It was obvious from the start the Beavis case, far from being the test case some believed it would be was just an individual case & any judgement would always relate just to that case & no other.



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