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 Topic: Towerblock fire in London
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18/6/2017 at 10:19pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Mike3003 on 18/6/2017
Quote: Originally posted by 664DaveS on 17/6/2017
According to news a few thousand saved on cladding instead of using better fire resistant stuff.
I would like to see money grabbing bean counters and execs brought to justice if its true.
Absolutely right Dave, they should have ALL their assets stripped and be made to pay back every penny and more. My dislike of property developers and the like has increased to near hatred. Greedy b#####ds.
Money before lives, that and cutting back on the very people we need to keep us safe................ A national disgrace.
Who are we nominating for the noose here?
If you run over and kill a child doing 30 in a 30 you won't get locked up for speeding. If you're sober, chances are you'll go down for careless driving or causing death by driving without due care and attention. Either way, there will be a law that will get you sent down.
Nobody knows if any laws have been broken yet. If the "law" (read building regs) states that the panels used are acceptable, and the contractor can prove all was also installed within the regs, that's them off the hook. If the same regs say you don't need to install sprinklers during any refurb of older buildings, that's that one out of the equation.
Clearly something has gone wrong, but that doesn't necessarily equate to someone having broken the law. Maybe, the only outcome will be a changing of these building refs, but for now, we (the public) need to keep that noise vet slack indeed!
Even if it does end up with these cladding panels getting the blame, that won't mean it was illegal, or even immoral, to have fitted them.
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19/6/2017 at 12:19am
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Very calculated and well put Mucker and you are, of course, dead right.
There is a lot of anger out there, understandably, especially within the community affected. Our thoughts are with those that have suffered so badly and will continue suffering, but watching the media coverage it does seem that their concerns were ignored.
But whatever the enquiries find or conclude, it will not bring those poor people back. Very sad times.
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Not ALL Newts get p**sed.
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19/6/2017 at 5:39pm
Location: Derby.
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Quote: Originally posted by Mike3003 on 19/6/2017
...but watching the media coverage it does seem that their concerns were ignored...
Indeed it does, Mike.
Their anger is totally understandable, as you rightly say.
But if the word on the street proves to be fact, then those to whom these concerns were aimed at apparently/allegedly passed them on to higher beings. No doubt that got passed again, to even higher beings. Those concerns may well have reached the very top, but ultimately, those at the very top know nothing about cladding panels nor sprinkler systems. Nor should we expect them to. They must be allowed to be advised by "the experts", and if they say all is ok/acceptable/above board, who can argue with them (until something like this happens!).
If it's the folk at the top that are being nominated by some for charges/prison/fines/hanging etc, then all those in a similar position will no longer trust the word of an expert, so nothing will ever get done as nobody would take responsibility.
If it's these so called experts that are being nominated, then in the twink of an eye, every single expert in the land will resign, never uttering another word of advice (knowledgable or otherwise), and we'll have literally nobody to turn to!
Sometimes we just have to put our trust in folk, and hope they know what they are doing/advising. Sometimes it may ultimately lead to mistakes being made, but mistakes they are, not criminal acts!
Obviously, my personal thoughts are all currently based on everything being within building regs and no corners cut. At the moment, we know nothing else.
Naturally, we must then look to learn from these mistakes and alter said building regs accordingly, including retrospective improvements if need be.
If corners have been cut, and rules have been broken, then I'll happily join the witch hunt!
I wonder if those that are calling for charges to be made (at this extremely early stage) could guarantee that their own house could never catch fire and cause the death of a neighbour, (and would they then put themselves forward for a manslaughter charge, as the owner of the house?) or are they simply putting their faith in the experts?
Mistakes happen, people. If this proves to be the case, how about we learn from them, instead of trying to find a guilty party.
If it ultimately proves to be a criminal act, then rant away, but for now at least, let's just keep a little decorum. We owe that much at least, to those tragically lost, and those left suffering.
XXX
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19/6/2017 at 6:34pm
Location: Chilwell Notts
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We were talking about this on a union course today.
Apparently the sprinkler system would only be in the stairwells anyway as all the flats have fire doors that will block fire for at least 30 minutes.
The problem was the fire spread on the outside due to the cladding drawing air up like you'd do in a fire grate.
Someone stated that the cladding is banned in the EU and by default should be here although it may meet BS.
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Dogs die in hot cars!
They also die if you leave them in the freezer.
Please keep your dogs at room temperature!
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19/6/2017 at 6:54pm
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If it's banned in the EU, why is it (apparently) fit for purpose in the specific application here?
Mucker is right. If corners have been cut and specs not met (I seem to remember it was deliberate flouting of electrical wiring code in the film Towering Inferno?) then those responsible should be dealt with to the full extent of the law.
The tenants affected need to be helped now then we should wait to see what the cause(s) was/were (almost certainly, an awful combination of factors) and ensure that whilst we can't prevent fires breaking out, we can use science, physics, and the law to stop spread and such devastation.
But second in line for the firing squad are those who whip up the mob for their own ends. IMHO.
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Mike
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19/6/2017 at 7:04pm
Location: Chilwell Notts
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Quote: Originally posted by mikegalagher on 19/6/2017
If it's banned in the EU, why is it (apparently) fit for purpose in the specific application here?
The Germans I work with reckon that the BS in British standards stands for bulls**t. Anyway, as you said it's all speculation right now
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Dogs die in hot cars!
They also die if you leave them in the freezer.
Please keep your dogs at room temperature!
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19/6/2017 at 9:12pm
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Quote: Originally posted by DaneR on 19/6/2017
...
The Germans I work with reckon that the BS in British standards stands for bulls**t.
...
And I'm sure your response was - "much like VW's emissions claims then".
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Mike
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19/6/2017 at 10:06pm
Location: Ross-on-Wye
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Root Cause Analysis - I'm not convinced that the PIR insulated cladding is the primary problem. The mains gas fitting within the stairwell / fire escape is most likely the primary issue. The heat and chimney effect through the middle of the block appears to have had no emergency seals to contain fire; or measures to shut it down. On a new build that would be built into building regulations but isn't transferable to refurbishment works (insane that energy efficiency is transferable but not safety: But that's the grant system for you).
The extreme heat would have caused the PIR insulation to ignite; and the phenolic grade (FR) insulation would have been better; but we need to ask why it got that hot or how fire got to the insulation stuck on the outside of a concrete block.
As Mucker said, we mustn't let anger drive this. Find the cause and learn the lessons. If we need to change things then change them. Blame and punishment is the least important thing; even if it feels the most urgent right now.
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20/6/2017 at 2:31pm
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Could the cause of any councils 'ignorance' be solely down to cost. They will own hundreds of similar blocks without sprinklers, and with possibly iffy cladding (to be proved). So the sheer amount of money to retro-fit sprinklers (even if they had worked in this case), would be phenomenal. And, lets face it, whats the chances of a 24 story block going up like a chinese lantern! So they swerved the issue.
On the thornier subject of people demanding being re-housed locally. If they are working and paying their way, they have a point. If, however, the council is paying the £1800 a month rent for them + other benefits; to me, they should be housed in a cheaper part of the country. Myself, and a lot of working folk on here couldnt afford to live in Kensington. Thats if they wanted to - which i personally wouldnt.
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20/6/2017 at 6:09pm
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Mick S, re your second paragraph, it's rarely that simple. I strongly suspect that many of those in the tower block were doing vital jobs in London, but were probably not even earning £1,800 a month. Moving them to a cheaper part of the country because they were claiming benefits would solve nothing, as who would do their jobs, and what work would they be able to get in a cheaper part of the country? These days, many of those having to claim benefits are working, as rents and wages are no longer in sync. Either rents are FAR too high, or wages WAY too low, or possibly both.
I certainly couldn't afford to live in Kensington, but then I wouldn't want to either.
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20/6/2017 at 7:16pm
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I did infer, that the ones who were not working, should maybe be moved eleswhere. Maybe i wasnt clear enough. If they are not working, there is nothing to stop them being rehoused in a different location - possibly to a better place than where they were.
If i was homeless and jobless, i wouldnt expect to be able to dictate where my new tax-funded abode would be. Its a terrible state of affairs nontheless for these people, but they have to accept reality.
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20/6/2017 at 7:37pm
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Seriously, hardly anyone on benefits is homeless and jobless. If you ignore pensioners the vast majority of benefit recipients are working.
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Sean
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20/6/2017 at 7:51pm
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Surely if someone isn't working, the best place for them to be is where the work is. Most people who are unemployed would love to be working, although I accept that there are a tiny number who wouldn't. If a part of the country is cheap to live, it is often because there is no work there, especially for strangers to the area. I learned many years ago that when work is scarce, most jobs go to locals, not "incomers". So glad I'm retired!
Very true what you say, Sean.
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20/6/2017 at 8:00pm
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If there is an inconsistency betwen rents and average wages, it'll be magnified here.
The new MP (ex council housing committee and K&C TMO) told BBC R4 that she'd heard countless reports of folks sleeping rough due to concerns about immigration status.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40343897
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Mike
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23/6/2017 at 7:06am
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The combustible inferior cheaper cladding was fitted to the Tower, instead of the fire resistant cladding which the residents wanted. This compromised the design of the flats which fundamentally contain any fire that broke out, preventing it from spreading. The cladding caused the spread because of combustible material used. Serious considerations were made by the coroner from the last fire which broke out from a tower block. These have been ignored. Older flats do not meet the regulation which are in place for newer towers.
So yes cooperate manslaughter in this case needs to be considered.
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