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Subject Topic: 85% rule and 4x4s
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PersonBignose+jo
08/6/2013 at 6:53pm
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I've been looking at the kerbweights of 4x4s and trying to use the 85% of the kerb weight rule. So far I've looked at;
- Kia Sorento
- Hyundai Santa Fe
- Ssanyong Korando and Rexton
- Land Rover Discovery
- Nissans
- Volkswagen Tuareg
- Volvo XC90
We have a Sedona which has enough kerb weight for the rule for our van (1800kg MTPLM) although I don't think we ever load it above 1700kg.
Thought the change to 4x4 would be good, but lots of them have towing mass rated at 2000kg or greater, but this would make them well over 85% if they towed up to their maximum rating.
If you tow with a 4x4, do you apply the 85% rule still or does the extra grip/stability allow you to go higher?
What do people think?


PersonOpensauce
08/6/2013 at 7:36pm
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Its not a rule, its a suggestion based on a caravan being a large slab that is affected by crosswinds making it avisable tow to a caravan that is somewhat lighter than the car.

The max tow weight of a car as noted in the handbook is simply a technical figure based on the mass that the car can shift starting on an 8% gradient & obviously with 4wd drive this figure will be higher than 2wd. It is not an indication of any sort of safe towing weight. That will depend on what is being towed. For caravans it is good idea to keep it a bit below weight of towcar & 85% is a reasonable suggestion for any car.


PersonBignose+jo
08/6/2013 at 7:41pm
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Thanks for that Tentz.
We were aware of all of that.
We just wanted to check if experienced 4x4 drivers felt you could go higher.


Persontommyv
08/6/2013 at 7:42pm
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Interesting one, we have this issue at work where the company land rover can tow far more than the fleet transits despite similar kerb weights simply due to the little buggers ridiculous torque!!! Unfortunately we don't tend to tow more than a 1.2 tonnes but if it were me and you are staying inside the manufacturers max towing weight I would be happy. The 85 rule is only a guide and not law so if the 4x4 has enough grunt I would just load as much weight in the vehicle and not exceed 55 mph.


PersonBignose+jo
08/6/2013 at 7:43pm
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Also wanted to know what their % is for their units.


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PersonOpensauce
08/6/2013 at 8:06pm
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I think the 85% suggestion came about for the benefit of those that cannot grasp the basic principals of loading & towing. For example, if you drive a heavy truck & load 25ton of steel about a foot high you know you can drive into bends much quicker than if you load 25ton of palletised goods that go up to the roof of the trailer. Truck drivers will sometimes have to load awkward, unbalanced loads that make for a very unstable drive, they have take it but they drive accordingly, there is no such thing as a safe load, only a safe driver.

Whatever the weight of caravan that you tow within your car's physical limits you cannot expect anybody else to tell you whether it is safe for you to drive or not, all they can advise you on is how to load your car/caravan safely & then it is up to you to understand how to safely drive the outfit. For those that can't grasp this they have the suggestion that they keep weight of caravan to around 85% weight of towcar.

Having spent my working life driving trucks I can stand & look at any car/caravan combination & know more of less if it is a good match & whether it is loaded properly with correct tyre pressures just by the way the outfit sits. Its just experience that allows me to do that. For those that can't then start with around 85% car/caravan ratio & go from there.


PersonBignose+jo
08/6/2013 at 8:30pm
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I think I' ve grasped it now Tentz.
Thanks


PersonBignose+jo
08/6/2013 at 8:31pm
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It would still be nice to hear what other people do if they have the time.


Persontommyv
08/6/2013 at 8:36pm
 Location: Bath
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Tentz

Out of interest I didn't know the manufacturers max towing weight was simply a calculation but thought it was born out of extensive testing done at the production stage.


PersonOpensauce
08/6/2013 at 9:16pm
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Yes, the car is tested & the maximum weight it can move on an 8% gradient is arrived at, Audi give max tow weights at both 8% & 12% gradients. This figure will vary on a given model of car depending on specified engine & transmission. I'm not certain that the specified max tow weight is even legally enforcable, it is the specified gross train weight that cannot be legally exceeded & if you are stopped for a check they will weigh the whole outfit. Nothing in the manufacturer's spec. suggests or implies a 'safe' tow weight, they are simply technical figures.

A 4x4 towing at motorway speeds will be no 'safer' than a 2wd car, in fact with a higher centre of gravity it might even be less 'safe'.


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Persontommyv
08/6/2013 at 9:25pm
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I know, my dad overloaded a trailer when towing with a mark 1 discovery and ended up facing the wrong way down the m4!!! Lucky he never hit anyone. Funny enough the only time I have seen a caravan tipped over was on the a38 in devon with a short wheel base transit, people often mis place trust in bigger vehicles without respecting the trailer / caravan behind them.


PersonOpensauce
08/6/2013 at 9:40pm
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Yes, I think people need to get away from figures & just look at things logically, the lighter the caravan compared with the car the more 'liberties' you can take with the outfit. If you tow a caravan that is heavier than the towcar then logic dictates you have to drive it more carefully whatever towcar you have. The outfit is only as 'safe' as the driver.


Personaudicab26
08/6/2013 at 10:09pm
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We recently replaced our Passat tow car with an Xtrail. The Nissan seems happier than the Passat ever did even though the Passat was a good match if a tiny bit over the 85% guide (not rule). I guess it's heavier, has more grip and more power, all of which make it more relaxing to tow with. I also find manoeuvring easier sitting higher.

I have not been towing caravans for long and not wishing to be the subject on a traffic bulletin I am really OCD around tyre pressures (car and van), checking nose weight, and loading etc. And we don't move off till it looks like its sitting right! The caravan and car are kept serviced too. These are just as important as any other safety measures.

You just need to make sure the car weighs more than the MPTLM of your van - the bigger the margin the better. If your van is 1800kgs then you need something big to drag it around with.

Manufacturers towing 'limits' are a little misleading, they just advise what a car can pull without breaking. It's not a safe or legal limit though as far as I can tell, as more often than not the figure far exceeds the kerb weight of the car.


PersonBignose+jo
08/6/2013 at 10:13pm
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Sorted then.

http://youtube.com/#/watch?v=fJJkjT7VB8k&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DfJJkjT7VB8k


PersonBignose+jo
08/6/2013 at 10:16pm
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Thanks audicab.
I always take it easy with the van. A friend tows at about 94% with a CRV and finds it safe. He's been towing for years and is very experienced.
Just wondered it 4x4 made a difference to people.


PersonGrampian91
08/6/2013 at 10:47pm
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Stabilty? Have you driven a 4x4? I know a few people that have rolled 4x4's. It would not have happened in a normal car.

The higher towing weight for a 4x4 is because they are lowered geared.

The test is usually whats the max weight it can tow up a 1 in 10 hill? From a standing start. If teh caravan drags it down the hill its gets a low tow limit.

Tow with whatever you are comfortable with. But remember the unexpected does happen and the heavier the car compared to the caravan the better.



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