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Quote: Originally posted by lunarjon on 15/7/2008

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its not illegal to use them its illegal to use them as a lifter and not a drop plate i do beleave

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Wrong on both counts, I'm afraid.  You *should* not use a drop plate as a lifter under any circumstances because it is unsafe. It will be illegal if the towbar is type approved. 

It is illegal to use a drop plate with type approved towbars with very few exceptions.   Type approved towbars are fitted to vehicles registered on or after 1 August 1998.   See:

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/NR/rdonlyres/8A4117E1-9C10-4923-B669-384A17183FC3/0/ChoiceofTowbar.pdf

The exceptions are, I understand, where the towbar was tested with a drop plate.  Some towbars for Land Rover Defenders are.  I don't know of any others.

Cheers
Andrew

Hi Jackie

Not a silly question at all. We had a real problem with our Hyundai Tucson which eventually cost me another towbar, so do your research carefull first.

This is worth a read for heights etc.

http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/support/Towballguide.pdf

I fitted a Brink detacheable towbar, and all was OK until we changed vans. The van had a low tow hitch which caused a problem. It is less stable to tow with the hitch up. Unladen the towbar was 465mm off the ground, and only dropped 9mm with a 75kg load on it. Brink confirmed that this was the correct height for an unladen Tucson. This is the problem with any 4x4. With very stiff springing and a short distance between the rear axle and the towbar they will not sink much when loaded.

Checked with Witter, theirs was 440mm, still to high. Finally bought a PCT towbar, as theirs was 415mm. I fit them myself and frankly the PCT was a better fit than the Brink, though otherwise both were much the same. The moral here is forget that so and so says their fitter always recommends ... check the statistics, the unladen height of the towbar before you commit yourselves.  From my experience, don't rely on the dealer, they never fit them and rarely know anything about them. If the dealer is arranging fitting, get them to quote the height in writing before you buy.

Also shop around for prices, big differences to be had.

Thank you everyone so much for your help.

I did ring the dealer and he was going to ask the fitter but i'm guessing now i should tell him i don't want one.

I've read all the posts and i'm a bit lost now.   Am worried too. Should i change the type of towbar we've asked to be fitted? The Car is a Jeep Grand Cherokee 2006 and the caravan is a Elddis Crusader Aurora. I rang around loads of Towbar fitters and none of them told me the witter one wouldn't be any good should they have done? The fitters the dealer is using came out cheapest that's why i went with them.

I'll show this thread to hubby when he gets home he might understand a lot of what you've all said about the technical side more than me.

Thank you all so much again i really appreciate your help will let you know how we get on.

Quote: Originally posted by JackieandSteve on 15/7/2008

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I rang around loads of Towbar fitters and none of them told me the witter one wouldn't be any good should they have done? The fitters the dealer is using came out cheapest that's why i went with them.

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Aren't you worrying before you need to?   Witter towbars are type approved to EC 94/20.   The centre of the towball must, therefore, be within the range 350mm to 420mm as required by EC 94/20.  This is for a loaded vehicle but not hitched to the caravan. 

You might find this interesting ....

http://www.witter-towbars.co.uk/FAQ/FAQ_Category.aspx?Category=10&Description=Get+on+Top+of+Towball+Heights

Personally, I'd just get the Witter towbar fitted and stop worrying.  Did you measure the height of the towbar on your previous towcar? 

Cheers
Andrew

 

Quote: Originally posted by AndrewK on 15/7/2008

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Quote: Originally posted by JackieandSteve on 15/7/2008

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I rang around loads of Towbar fitters and none of them told me the witter one wouldn't be any good should they have done? The fitters the dealer is using came out cheapest that's why i went with them.

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Aren't you worrying before you need to?   Witter towbars are type approved to EC 94/20.   The centre of the towball must, therefore, be within the range 350mm to 420mm as required by EC 94/20.  This is for a loaded vehicle but not hitched to the caravan. 

You might find this interesting ....

http://www.witter-towbars.co.uk/FAQ/FAQ_Category.aspx?Category=10&Description=Get+on+Top+of+Towball+Heights

Personally, I'd just get the Witter towbar fitted and stop worrying.  Did you measure the height of the towbar on your previous towcar? 

Cheers
Andrew

 

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Hi Andrew,

Yes i think i was worrying when i didn't need to but mainly because i wasn't understanding things but i do more now.

I rang the dealer back and mentioned to him i didn't want the drop plate as i was told it was illegal and he contacted the fitter and got back to me confirming that was true on vehicles newer than 1998 but i could have a height adjustable hitch fitted which is similar to the drop plate but legal and i declined at a cost of £60 extra and told him to go ahead with the fitting of the witter.

Yes hubby measured the height of the towbar on our current vehicle when he got home and it was within the range you stated. We pick the new car up on Saturday so hubby is going to test towing the caravan on Sunday. Fingers crossed.

Thank you i feel happier now

Quote: Originally posted by AndrewK on 15/7/2008

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Quote: Originally posted by JackieandSteve on 15/7/2008

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I rang around loads of Towbar fitters and none of them told me the witter one wouldn't be any good should they have done? The fitters the dealer is using came out cheapest that's why i went with them.

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Aren't you worrying before you need to?   Witter towbars are type approved to EC 94/20.   The centre of the towball must, therefore, be within the range 350mm to 420mm as required by EC 94/20.  This is for a loaded vehicle but not hitched to the caravan. 

You might find this interesting ....

http://www.witter-towbars.co.uk/FAQ/FAQ_Category.aspx?Category=10&Description=Get+on+Top+of+Towball+Heights

Personally, I'd just get the Witter towbar fitted and stop worrying.  Did you measure the height of the towbar on your previous towcar? 

Cheers
Andrew

 

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Andrew

Not true EC94/20 height does not apply to 4x4s. My Brink was type approved yet was 465mm, I would have had to load the boot with 375kg to get the towbar down to the max level, or 5 average weight adults.  Also heights are quoted for fully laden vehicles. It only takes a few minutes to phone each manufacturer, though you may have to be persistant to get an answer.  

Martin

Quote: Originally posted by freeatlast on 15/7/2008

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My Brink was type approved yet was 465mm

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Which car was that for?

Cheers
Andrew

Quote: Originally posted by AndrewK on 15/7/2008

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Quote: Originally posted by freeatlast on 15/7/2008

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My Brink was type approved yet was 465mm

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Which car was that for?

Cheers
Andrew

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Hyundai Tucson. All models (also Kia Sportage)

Martin

Quote: Originally posted by freeatlast on 15/7/2008

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Not true EC94/20 height does not apply to 4x4s. My Brink was type approved yet was 465mm, I would have had to load the boot with 375kg to get the towbar down to the max level, or 5 average weight adults.

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I may be misunderstanding what you are saying here.  Are you saying that the centre of your towball is 465mm from the ground with your vehicle fully laden? 

Also, can you please provide a reference for your assertion that part of 94/20/EC does not apply to 4x4s.  The Witter FAQ on towball heights does not say that.

Cheers
Andrew

Quote: Originally posted by freeatlast on 15/7/2008

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Not true EC94/20 height does not apply to 4x4s.

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I've been looking around on the internet and I think I've found the relevant bit of legislation that affects this.  EC94/20 heights do not apply to vehicles that are defined as "off-road" in Section 4 of Annex II of directive 92/53/EEC rather than to 4x4s generally.  See:  http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31992L0053:EN:NOT

The tests that determine whether a vehicle is regarded as "off-road" for vehicle category M1 (passenger vehicles with up to 8 seats other than the driver) are:

-  at least one front axle and at least one rear axle designed to be driven simultaneously including vehicles where the drive to one axle can be disengaged,

- at least one differential locking mechanism or at least one mechanism having a similar effect and if they can climb a 30 % gradient calculated for a solo vehicle.

In addition, they must satisfy at least five of the following six requirements:

- the approach angle must be at least 25 degrees,
- the departure angle must be at least 20 degrees,
- the ramp angle must be at least 20 degrees,
- the ground clearance under the front axle must be at least 180 mm,
- the ground clearance under the rear axle must be at least 180 mm,
- the ground clearance between the axles must be at least 200 mm.

Interesting ......................... ?  

Cheers
Andrew

Jackie, We have a similar outfit - 2006 Grand Cherokee and Crusader Superstorm. As with other postings the nose sits lower than when we towed our previous Avante with an estate.

Great tow car and to drive solo - hope you enjoy. 

Quote: Originally posted by CRUDASER2801 on 16/7/2008

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Jackie, We have a similar outfit - 2006 Grand Cherokee and Crusader Superstorm. As with other postings the nose sits lower than when we towed our previous Avante with an estate.

Great tow car and to drive solo - hope you enjoy. 

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That's good to hear Crusader. The towbar is being fitted today and we collect the car on Saturday.

Now we have the bigger towcar i't's really tempting to upgade to the twin axle too i must admit as i've always loved them but better not go too mad lol 

Quote: Originally posted by AndrewK on 16/7/2008

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Quote: Originally posted by freeatlast on 15/7/2008

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Not true EC94/20 height does not apply to 4x4s.

---

I've been looking around on the internet and I think I've found the relevant bit of legislation that affects this.  EC94/20 heights do not apply to vehicles that are defined as "off-road" in Section 4 of Annex II of directive 92/53/EEC rather than to 4x4s generally.  See:  http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31992L0053:EN:NOT

The tests that determine whether a vehicle is regarded as "off-road" for vehicle category M1 (passenger vehicles with up to 8 seats other than the driver) are:

-  at least one front axle and at least one rear axle designed to be driven simultaneously including vehicles where the drive to one axle can be disengaged,

- at least one differential locking mechanism or at least one mechanism having a similar effect and if they can climb a 30 % gradient calculated for a solo vehicle.

In addition, they must satisfy at least five of the following six requirements:

- the approach angle must be at least 25 degrees,
- the departure angle must be at least 20 degrees,
- the ramp angle must be at least 20 degrees,
- the ground clearance under the front axle must be at least 180 mm,
- the ground clearance under the rear axle must be at least 180 mm,
- the ground clearance between the axles must be at least 200 mm.

Interesting ......................... ?  

Cheers
Andrew

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Thanks Andrew

Interesting. Wonder if I have any redress against Brink? Does not appear to be a common problem.

Martin

Thank you everyone for your help and advice. We've now collected the car and the height of the towball looks perfect. (Just thought i should of measured it so will go and do that now) 

Not tried it on the caravan yet as we've not got enough time today but might do tomorrow if Steve's not too busy as he's on standy-by this weekend.

Thank you all again.