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Subject Topic: 85% rule and 4x4s
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08/6/2013 at 11:00pm
 Location: Bath
 Outfit: citroen xsara picasso xplore 304
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I spoke about this to a dealer in burnham on sea in May and he said the max towing weight is the legal figure that vosa / police are interested in and that if that is exceeded then your done. However most vin plates only state gross vehicle weight and gross train weight although to get the max towing weight you just subtract gross vehicle weight from gross train weight. In other words a combination that is at 95 per cent or more is still legal as long as you don't exceed the max towing weight so it is an important figure as far as the law goes.


09/6/2013 at 7:41am
 Location: Skipton
 Outfit: Coachman Wanderer & Audi A6 allroad
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Whether a vehicle is 4x4 or 2wd doesn't really make a difference once you're moving. The main benefit is traction at low speed in my opinion.
This is especially true when towing a caravan. It's not like your driving like a rally driver with a caravan hitched up.

Stability is more based around weight and the position of the weight. Load the caravan correctly with heavy things low down near to the axle and within the weight limits allowed. Get the nose weight right.
Then with the vehicle, you want something with ideally more weight than what you are towing and with a good bit of grunt. If you can get this in a standard car, then all good and well the lower centre of gravity will help you be more stable too. We have an estate car with 4 wheel drive and that works well for us.


09/6/2013 at 11:03am
 Location: Kennington OXFORD
 Outfit: 2005 Eccles Sterling Topaz 2 berth
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Quote: Originally posted by audicab26 on 08/6/2013
We recently replaced our Passat tow car with an Xtrail. The Nissan seems happier than the Passat ever did even though the Passat was a good match if a tiny bit over the 85% guide (not rule). I guess it's heavier, has more grip and more power, all of which make it more relaxing to tow with. I also find manoeuvring easier sitting higher.

I have not been towing caravans for long and not wishing to be the subject on a traffic bulletin I am really OCD around tyre pressures (car and van), checking nose weight, and loading etc. And we don't move off till it looks like its sitting right! The caravan and car are kept serviced too. These are just as important as any other safety measures.

You just need to make sure the car weighs more than the MPTLM of your van - the bigger the margin the better. If your van is 1800kgs then you need something big to drag it around with.

Manufacturers towing 'limits' are a little misleading, they just advise what a car can pull without breaking. It's not a safe or legal limit though as far as I can tell, as more often than not the figure far exceeds the kerb weight of the car.





audicab26 - good post, and very sensible view on it all from someone who has not been towing that long. I too am very OCD re the tyre pressures car/van and loading. It pays huge dividends in stability. Well said.

Tentz - I really like reading your posts and replies, all very sensible comments.

Brgds All
Pete



09/6/2013 at 11:57am
 Location: Lincolnshire
 Outfit: Adria Adora Thames
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What would interesting to know is what are the percentages that people tow at with their outfits and how stable do they find it?

I'll start the ball rolling.

Adria Thames & Kia Sedona
1800 kg.              2168kg
83%

Stable. Much heavier than previous van (1300kg). Both Adrias and both stable.
Heavy stuff low down and over axle. Nose weight 75kg. Tend to put most heavy stuff in the back of the car e.g. Awning, etc. I reckon it is about 1720kg when fully loaded with our gear.


09/6/2013 at 12:06pm
 Location: Yorkshire
 Outfit: Adria altea 542 dt Freelander 2
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Vectra 1.9 diesel estate kerb weight 1600kg (max tow 1500kg, nose weight limit on ball 85kg)
Adria altea 542dt mtplm 1300kg.

81.25%

Seems stable to me and pulls ok on roads well. Awning 30kg is in van over the axle. Clothes and stuff in the car.   


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09/6/2013 at 1:32pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Bignose+jo on 09/6/2013
What would interesting to know is what are the percentages that people tow at with their outfits and how stable do they find it?


To get the right answers you need to ask the right questions. How stable are the outfits in strong crosswinds & what is the driving style, ie 55mph in inside lane with the trucks or driving more like a solo car weaving in & out of the traffic at 60-70mph as some caravanners do?

Proivided all else is good, ie correct loading of caravan, tyre pressures correct etc, even a caravan well in excess of towcar weight will be a stable tow on a motorway in good weather conditions. At 'tother end of the scale a small & aerodynamic Eriba Touring can be driven almost as a solo car, you can weave in & out of motorway traffic & the 'van will follow as straight as a die without even without a stabilizer.

There are no suprises with caravan handling & its mainly about the amount of margin for error you leave yourself. It goes back to the truck driver, he drives according to the nature of the load, as should the caravanner.



09/6/2013 at 1:56pm
 Location: Lincolnshire
 Outfit: Adria Adora Thames
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Tentsz.
I've asked a question that I'd like the answers to Ta!

I'd like to know what other drivers' towing percentages are.

Although not as experienced as others, I've been towing vans for 6 years all across the Uk, France, Germany, Austria, etc. No accidents, no scares - touch wood!
We understand about correct loading and driving according to the conditions and the law.

I've never had a 4x4 and only ever towed with a vehicle and van that was below 85%. I've read the threads about Shoguns and Nissan 4x4 vehicles and their owners were pleased with stability and their towing ability on this forum and others. Our current vehicle is quite heavy, tall, but very wide and feels stable, but now a little underpowered.

I'd like to know their experiences. If they don't want to share this information, they won't.

Love Bignose




09/6/2013 at 2:08pm
 Location: Lincolnshire
 Outfit: Adria Adora Thames
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Cheers Andy.

We had an Altea 542dt as well.

Lovely, stable van that was quite light for its size.

It was a 60% match for us with the Sedona and very easy to tow. With bikes and other things in the car we were close to our Gross Vehicle Train Weight as we went away for a month with our three kids - lots of junk to take!

Hope you like yours as much as we did ours. The boys got too big for their bunks, hence the change.


09/6/2013 at 2:09pm
 Location: Huddersfield
 Outfit: swift conqueror 645+jeep commander
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Jeep Commander 3.0 diesel 2456 kls towing 1820 kls 74.10%


09/6/2013 at 2:25pm
 Location: Lincolnshire
 Outfit: Adria Adora Thames
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Cheers Geoff.


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09/6/2013 at 2:40pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Bignose+jo on 08/6/2013
If you tow with a 4x4, do you apply the 85% rule still or does the extra grip/stability allow you to go higher?
What do people think?


If you want to tow with a Nissan Pathfinder, Shogun or similar heavy 4x4 then you will be under 85% even with largest legal to tow caravan so your question will not arise & they cannot fail to make good towcars. If you want to tow with a lighter 4x4 SUV then the answer would be no, for a given weight a 4x4 will be no 'safer' than a 2wd at open road towing speeds. If your feel your car is underpowered then you need a car with more power/torque which is a separate issue from how it handles while towing.



09/6/2013 at 3:16pm
 Location: Cider County
 Outfit: None Entered
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My towing percentage is 92 but towing a twin axle van is very different I find it less likely to sway and easier to get the nose weight right and I tend to load the car with awning and other heavy items.

-------------
Pete.


09/6/2013 at 3:21pm
 Location: Lincolnshire
 Outfit: Adria Adora Thames
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Surprisingly Tentz, some Pathfinders have less mass than the Kia Sedona we now have.
The Shogun looks heavier, about 97kg more. Their power and torque looks better though.



09/6/2013 at 3:29pm
 Location: Lincolnshire
 Outfit: Adria Adora Thames
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Hi Pete.
Ours have both been single axle vans about 7m and 8m long.
The only time we ever really feel the van sway a little is when we are passed by big, high Transit type vans on the motorway. They seem to create a big 'bow wave' in the air as they blast past. I can imagine a twin axle would handle that situation better than a single.
Reassuring to hear you find 92% stable.


09/6/2013 at 3:57pm
 Location: Lincolnshire
 Outfit: Adria Adora Thames
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Hi Geoff.
Just looked up a picture of a Jeep Commander.
Looks a lovely big tow car. How do you get on with it?


09/6/2013 at 5:21pm
 Location: Huddersfield
 Outfit: swift conqueror 645+jeep commander
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There are pictures on my gallery of car and van
Its fine they are based on the ML merc with seven seats and were built in Germany Ours was the 2008 demo car and as such fitted with all the extra,s Including the merc sat nav which is rubbish The 3.0 ltr diesel V6 rated at 215 HP does around 22 with or without van they were jeeps answer to the discovery but they never really caught on



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