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Subject Topic: Towing and Dual mass fly wheels
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16/10/2013 at 2:39am
 Location: Midlands
 Outfit: Mondeo Avondale Gram
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1800 - 2000 is too high?

Power will generally keep climbing until just past 4000rpm where it starts to taper and then drop off.

4500 - 5000 your probably losing power and better off changing up.

Revving a diesel to 2000rpm is not going to hurt it. Its in its efficient stress free zone.

According to my book my car has its peak torque at 1800rpm. Put i know for a fact that at 2000rpm its pulling a lot harder that it does at 1800. Boost is still increasing.

Got me curious now. I wonder at what revs does my car hits maximum boost?
Doesnt help that my OBD scanner maxes out at
approx 23 psi.


16/10/2013 at 9:00am
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All this talk of revs is pedantic really & irrelevant without mention of a specific engine. What caravanners need to be aware of is that its less obvious when engine is labouring due to shock absorbing nature of dmf. This would be up long motorway inclines for example & once revs drop they need to change down. Keeping revs up while hill climbing also keeps engine cooler as it pumps more coolant around engine.

-------------
Regards, Jack+Jon.


16/10/2013 at 10:00am
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Quote: Originally posted by Grampian91 on 16/10/2013
1800 - 2000 is too high?

Got me curious now. I wonder at what revs does my car hits maximum boost?
Doesnt help that my OBD scanner maxes out at
approx 23 psi.


On mine the tubo does not kick in until around 1800-2000 then increases the boost up the rev range until around 1.0 bar at 3000 revs then it reaches a point around 3500 to 4000 revs where it reaches max boost of 1.2bar when the wastegate will start to open.

In practice is it best to keep mine around 2000-3000 revs but it can shoot up to 3500 to 4000 if you decide to accelerate and the gearbox decides to change down 2 gears instead of just the one (I know, my heavy foot)17

As for what gear/ revs to be in at any speed, I was taught, on the bike as well as the car, to be in the most responsive gear for your speed, ie a gear that if you lift off the throttle gives you engine breaking and if you have to accelerate gives you instant acceleration without having to change gear.



16/10/2013 at 10:34am
 Location: Yeadon Leeds!
 Outfit: Swift Challenger & Defender 110SW
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A DMF IS NOT 2 flywheels stuck together with a shock absorber.

See here

Ive seen this explanation too many times, and its misleading.

Driving at lower revs is not necessarily bad for a DMF, labouring the engine is. if you can toddle along with minimum foot at 30 in 4th, then do so, if you then start up an incline, and feel your foot pressing down, you probably need to change down.

As for swapping a dmf to a solid flywheel, we are now beginning to see some premature gearbox failures because of this, as they cant withstand the extra shock/vibration that the DMF reduces.

revs to max boost is also not a straight line, if theres no load, you wont get max boost, my fender will only reach 4/5psi under no load, but up a hill will fully boosts at about 1600 (guessing, I have no tacho)


16/10/2013 at 12:27pm
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Too much pendantry on this thread, if those that know want to put the point over to that don't, then it needs to be explained in simple terms, ie, a dmf can be simply described as 2 flywheels stuck together with a shock absorber & allowing car to slow sufficiently for engine to labour on a regular basis will shorten the life of dmf.


-------------
Regards, Jack+Jon.


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16/10/2013 at 1:38pm
 Location: Rochdale
 Outfit: Hymer Nova 470 Mondeo titanium 140tdc
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Quote: Originally posted by Grampian91 on 16/10/2013
1800 - 2000 is too high?

Power will generally keep climbing until just past 4000rpm where it starts to taper and then drop off.





Speeds for 2000 revs in my car, 1st about 17mph, second 30 mph, 3rd 40 mph, 5th 65mph and 6th 75mph. If it is suggested I should not be changing up till the engine is doing that sort of speed then quite honestly the car is unsuitable to be driven on the roads, which is just not so. Again anyone suggesting that these sorts of engine speeds are appropriate is likely to be driving like a boy racer using lots of acceleration. My changes are and will continue to be made at about 1500 rpm shortly after the car reaches peak torque. This means that the car will always be pulling strongly and will not labour at all, which in turn means the lowest amount of stress on the flywheel and the other drive components, plus it leads to lowest fuel consumption. Towing the caravan the car on the motorway is content at an indicated speed of about 57 mph slightly slower and changes of incline may lead to the engine slowing and requiring a gear change, higher and the fuel consumption rises dramatically. Steeper hills require a change down to 5th. Single carriageway roads lead to a mixture of 4th and fifth gears for same reasons as explained above. Using speeds above 1800rpm lead to road speeds that are in general quite innapropriate to pleasant, quiet and relaxing driving.

Brakes, clutches, and more recently are all consumable materials in a cars life, along with tyres fuel, oil, wate and all the rest of the wearing parts of the car. The only difference is that they have in general if used in line with their design specs and not harshly they will have a sufficiently long life.


-------------
Bill

For a licence dated 1997 or later you must add together the plated max weight of the caravan and trailer, if the total is 3500 or less you can tow it. You may even tow a caravan with a MAM greater than the cars unladen mass the restriction was removed in 2013

Mondeo Titanium 140 tdci


16/10/2013 at 4:01pm
 Location: Midlands
 Outfit: Mondeo Avondale Gram
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You seem to be confusing more revs with going faster.

When i was learning to drive the instructor told me just because you change gear doesnt mean you have to go faster.

You can do 30mph in 4th as well as 3rd.

Change down a gear and the revs will be in the right spot.

You dont have to go faster.. Change gear.


The torque curve on a modern diesel is very steep. It goes from little to lots in a few hundred RPM.

Ive driven older diesels where they are virtually impossible to stall. Its easy to stall a modern diesel if you want to.



16/10/2013 at 4:34pm
 Location: Rushden Northants
 Outfit: Mercedes 614D Conversion
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Glad we bought a V8 petrol with a nice conventional Borg & Beck clutch and a solid flywheel .... :)

Peter


16/10/2013 at 4:53pm
 Location: Rochdale
 Outfit: Hymer Nova 470 Mondeo titanium 140tdc
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Quote: Originally posted by Grampian91 on 16/10/2013
You seem to be confusing more revs with going faster.

When i was learning to drive the instructor told me just because you change gear doesnt mean you have to go faster.

You can do 30mph in 4th as well as 3rd.

Change down a gear and the revs will be in the right spot.

You dont have to go faster.. Change gear.


The torque curve on a modern diesel is very steep. It goes from little to lots in a few hundred RPM.

Ive driven older diesels where they are virtually impossible to stall. Its easy to stall a modern diesel if you want to.





Which is what I do. My comments all refer to the idea that a car should be driven at about 2000 rpm, which for a diesel engine is preposterous.
As is the idea that is implied that gear changes should be made at the same sort of revs. My driving style is simple start in 1st and change asap, move into 2nd and change at about 15 mph, from third to fourth is about 25 and from 4th to fifth at about 40 then onto 6th at about 50. It works, the engine never labours, the last clutch I changed was in 1997 and that was caused by a leaking oil seal, oh yes and I tend to keep my cars about 8 years doing about 80k miles in that time and selling the cars with about 100k on the clock.

-------------
Bill

For a licence dated 1997 or later you must add together the plated max weight of the caravan and trailer, if the total is 3500 or less you can tow it. You may even tow a caravan with a MAM greater than the cars unladen mass the restriction was removed in 2013

Mondeo Titanium 140 tdci


16/10/2013 at 4:57pm
 Location: Rochdale
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Quote: Originally posted by listerdiesel on 16/10/2013
Glad we bought a V8 petrol with a nice conventional Borg & Beck clutch and a solid flywheel .... :)

Peter




Most modern cars with a manual gearbox are likely to have a Dmf, from my experience they cause few problems treated kindly. The only cars in 50 years driving that have had clutch problems had a solid flywheel, but then again that was what older cars tended to have. (:-)


-------------
Bill

For a licence dated 1997 or later you must add together the plated max weight of the caravan and trailer, if the total is 3500 or less you can tow it. You may even tow a caravan with a MAM greater than the cars unladen mass the restriction was removed in 2013

Mondeo Titanium 140 tdci


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16/10/2013 at 5:15pm
 Location: durham
 Outfit: bailey
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I had an Astra  - 54 reg - 90k miles - 5 years old - and the clutch /flywheel went while towing in France. I regularly do 4k each summer with the caravan and 1k in the UK.   I did some research on my return home to find that the flywheel issue was an issue for cars across the board of that generation due to a factory in Austria making a poor batch of clutch/flywheels.  All makes of cars were affected and some had a problem within a year and with less than 20k on the clock.  So much of what has been written above may well be correct, the issue goes deeper.  Perhaps the Op's car was of that generation. 


18/10/2013 at 11:48pm
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Quote: Originally posted by tango55 on 14/10/2013
Back in 2004 we had a brand new Vauxhall Zafira 1.8 petrol which in less than 12 months and about 5,000 on the clock had to have a new clutch fitted under the vehicle warranty. We did tow a caravan about half a dozen times a year which had a laden weight of only 1000 kgs. but generally Vauxhalls don't have a good reputation especially for towing. If you do any research on vehicle BHP and torque delivery they are not in the same league as other vehicles of the same engine size etc. and for that reason not that many caravanners use them. The people that do generally tow with them usually don't give a fig about the match or noseweight anyway and will hitch up regardlessly but once you have had a bad experience with a Vauxhall it puts you off for good. Have a look to see how many you see towing with a Ford Mondeo in a like for like comparison to a Vauxhall Vectra and you will find that the Mondeo is far more popular in more ways than one. Don't let the Vauxhall persuade you to opt for an auto just of a bad experience as I have had 2 Ford Focuses with a manual gearbox and now a Volvo V50 also a manual and have had no problems regarding the clutch or DMF.



Bit of a generalisation there!   I tow with a vectra and certainly do give a fig about nose weight and match! I got the car prior to owning a caravan.   It pulls the van well but clutch overheats easily when reversing. Recently had to replace clutch. .



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