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28/1/2024 at 7:39pm
Location: Shrewsbury
Outfit: Ace Celebration 620
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Mmm...
Well, my 2018 2.0 Turbodiesel Toyota Avensis 5D Business Edition has a kerb weight of 1610kg, and a maximum laden weight of 2100kg, and the 2008 Ace Celebration 620, depending on who you ask, has a MTPLM of 1620 to 1685kg, must take a look at the plate.
The Toyota can tow up to 1800kg, and I have had the engine remapped for towing.
Drawbar on the Toyota is 75kg, for the Caravan who knows, must look at the plate.
Having been driving since 1982, and having had an LGV and towed LGV Trailers, and towed everything from boats, to 32KVa Generators, to sheep trailers, I'm not a novice at either driving or towing, but I am a complete novice to towing caravans.
I'm not sure of the efficacy of the 85% or 100% guidance, since this was first introduced in 1954, with cross-ply tyres, drum brakes, low BHP/Torque, without the advent of stabilisers, handling, aerodynamics, r indeed everything else that has progressed.
However, that being said, caravans are high sided vehicles prone to influence from other heavier high sided vehicles, and cross winds/gusts.
I think the 85% guidance is catering to the worst case scenario in 1954, a kerb weight tow vehicle, and a fully laden caravan, without attention to caravan load weight distribution and a new driver to towing. Where as a more experienced driver follows the 100% guidance in the worst case scenario in 1954 of driving a kerb weight tow vehicle with the same fully laden caravan, which may or may not be properly loaded for best weight distribution.
The worst case scenario is unlikely, since if you're towing a caravan you're likely not alone in the tow vehicle, and you'll have it laden with something, such as luggage, dogs, roof box, bicycles, etc., Also in 1954 there were no manufacturers towing figures, you basically attached whatever could be moved down the road, there was no drawbar or nose weight stipulated, and it was a wing and a prayer.
Whilst it's good guidance, as a rule of thumb, it desperately needs an update.
As it is, with radial tyres, ABS, ESR, disc brakes, modern suspension and steering, and an annual MoT, together with better driver training, stabiliser systems, etc., I think the guidance puts my combination at either ~100% or ~105%, but with a roof box, two adults, two large dogs, luggage, etc., and a properly laden ALKO Hitch caravan, with a nose weight of no more than 75kg stationary, in a relatively long wheelbase Estate Tow Car, I don't think I have much to worry about if I keep to 56mph on a Motorway / Dual Carriageway, and am wary of LGV wheel ruts in the nearside lane, and passing high sided vehicles.
Anyway, practice always makes perfect, pick a destination not too far away, in good weather, and give it a go, and build up to longer distance touring in varying weather. Make sure you tie everything down in the caravan, as a shifting load will affect handling, and it could all go wrong.
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29/1/2024 at 9:35am
Location: East Herts
Outfit: 1992 Elddis Wisp 450CT + X Trail
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I don't remember figures being quoted for anything as much as they are today. I started towing caravans in 1975, first a Sprite Alpine, then a Sprite Musketeer, both with a Mk2 Cortina. I never heard anyone back then mention towing weights, 85%, or noseweight. If it looked right and it towed ok then it was ok. I remember one disastrous combination I tried, and that was the Musketeer being towed by an air-cooled VW camper. It was hopeless. Even on the flat if I had the slightest headwind it wouldn't take top gear, I had to go down to 3rd or it would get slower and slower. The Cortina had hardly noticed it on the back.
These days everything has to be weighed and calculated, and figures adhered to. That 85% guideline is probably a good idea for a novice, but the manual version of my X Trail (I have the auto, which is lower) has a towing limit of 2 tons, which is considerably heavier than the car. I'm sure it would handle that just fine, as I've seen them being used to tow horse boxes and all sorts of large trailers. The only thing I hate towing with my X Trail is my little box trailer, as I can't see it unless it has jackknifed, and I can't feel it on the back either. It's perfectly legal though. 
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Best Regards,
Colin
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29/1/2024 at 12:06pm
Location: London
Outfit: Lunar Cosmos 524
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The 85% rule is probably one of the most mysterious/maligned/abused aspects of towing, it's origins even seem to be unknown, but I'm inclined to think they are not as far back as 1954! Certainly back to my early days of towing in the early 70's, anything you could hitch and move was acceptable, at least, it was common practice and I don't recall it ever being challenged in any way! I've certainly towed some outfits that broke EVERY current convention - and I'm still here to tell the tale!
I've heard tell of the 'rule' originating with the Caravan Club as advised good practice around about the early 80's when trailer towing speed limits were raised from a blanket 50 to 60 MPH on selected roads. That sort of fits in my mind, as that was a time of many more aspects of towing being more formalised and changing I believe. IIRC, prior to that top towing speed was 40, or 50 MPH if you had a sticker on the back, and pretty sure that was in force when I first towed, certainly put a 50 sticker on the back of my boat acquired in 1981. The low speed was probably why we got away with so much back in that era!
I certainly wouldn't be totally dismissive of the 85% rule for novices, towing is a learned skill and stacking a few odds in your favour whilst you learn can only be a good thing, but it's need for experience towers with so much technology and modern vehicles I seriously question. That said, some outfits are truly awful, and even the 85% rule feels inadequate - I've driven some, and much above 40MPH gets to be a white-knuckle ride! My personal current outfit never ceases to impress, and that's running around 97%, even at excessive speed (accidentally hit over 70MPH a few times!) it gives no cause for concern (other than blue lights in the mirrors!!!)
One of my concerns with the 85% rule is the way it's often presented as some kind of 'invisible safety barrier' and in its self it will protect you! It won't for certain, proper loading of the trailer is a FAR greater aid to safety, but that gets little attention and is widely abused by many. Whenever I see one of those video clips of a snaking incident/accident, I look at the outfit and inevitably think to myself that SHOULD have been safe enough, bet it was badly loaded though!
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29/1/2024 at 1:49pm
Location: Midlands
Outfit: 2019 VW Arteon + 2002 Avondale Dart
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The applicability of an 85% towing weight ratio is something that's been debated for years if not decades, and the argument shows no sign of abating. What so many people don't seem to be able to get is that it's advisory only, aimed solely at people new to towing caravans and should be considered if, and only if, it's legally permissible to tow that weight in the first place.
It doesn't help that both caravan clubs and Practical Caravan magazine refer to it - quite wrongly - as the "85% rule" when it's no such thing, and also that they imply that it's critical down to the last kg when a few seconds thought will show that this is nonsense. If you're talking cars and caravans each weighing somewhere in the region of 1.5 tonnes, a few tens of kgs either way won't even be noticeable.
But look at it this way.
Yes, you can legally tow a caravan, or indeed any other form of braked trailer, weighing right up to your car's towing capacity, which may or may not be well in excess of its kerb weight. In the same way that you can drive at speeds of up to 60mph on any derestricted national road. But when my brother tried to do that in heavy rain after recently passing his test, he aquaplaned off the road and wrote off his car. Why? Because he didn't have the experience to know that he needed to back off in those conditions.
Towing a high-sided and long caravan is a little bit like driving in heavy rain. Caravans, by design, are inherently less stable than most other types of trailer and if you're going to tow one for perhaps hundreds of miles to your holiday destination, it makes sense to reduce the weight of it relative to that of your car accordingly.
I do acknowledge that there is seemingly no evidence at all to suggest that a ratio of 85% is 'safer' than 90% or for that matter, 'less safe' than 80%. However, the principle of keeping the caravan lighter than the car can only be sensible in principle.
For this reason, and until such time as this whole issue is given a critical review (and that shows no sign of happening any time soon), I'm all for advising newbies to aim initially for a ratio somewhere in the region of 85%, on the understanding that this may be exceeded as the driver's experience and confidence allows it.
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29/1/2024 at 3:16pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Colin21 on 14/7/2023
Quote: Originally posted by Rob and Tina on 14/7/2023
A kerb weight of 1539kgs and an mtplm of 1643kgs,how come none of you that have already answered haven't picked up on this? It's so wrong with a caravan and heaven only knows what an insurance company or maybe the police would do if you have an accident whilst towing. Realistically nobody is going to tow a caravan empty and transfer all the bedding, crockery, pots and pans etc etc every time you set up and pack down it would tow like a pig if you did that. My suggestion is to get a bigger car with a kerb weight of about 1900kg or change your caravan. It doesn't matter how much you try to massage the figures it doesn't make it right or a safe tow.
Tina
Must admit I somehow missed that! As I said, the 85% is only a guideline, but towing with a car with a kerb-weight lower than the caravan could invalidate your insurance, and you cannot manipulate the figures to change that. I always err on the side of caution and tow with a car that is more than adequate for towing my caravan. I tow a caravan weighing under 1 ton with a 2 litre diesel X Trail and I hardly notice it on the back. Towing my caravan empty, as it was when I brought it home from the dealer, it did not tow that well. The nose-weight was too low. Once loaded up with our usual gear it tows like a dream.
Colin, you keep claiming that towing a caravan that is heavier than the kerb weight of your car can invalidate your insurance. Do you have any evidence of this? I have never ever seen any car insurance conditions that stipulate any towing regulations other than those of the vehicle manufacturer. Given that the kerb weight has no legal relevance, is not a plated weight and has no formal definition I cannot see how any car insurance company can possibly have this in their conditions, especially as on many cars there is no reference on the vehicle or the V5 as to what the kerb weight actually is. If any company refused a claim because of such a vague clause they would most likely find themselves in trouble with the insurance ominbus.
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29/1/2024 at 5:46pm
Location: East Herts
Outfit: 1992 Elddis Wisp 450CT + X Trail
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Quote: Originally posted by martin734 on 29/1/2024
Quote: Originally posted by Colin21 on 14/7/2023
Must admit I somehow missed that! As I said, the 85% is only a guideline, but towing with a car with a kerb-weight lower than the caravan could invalidate your insurance, and you cannot manipulate the figures to change that. I always err on the side of caution and tow with a car that is more than adequate for towing my caravan. I tow a caravan weighing under 1 ton with a 2 litre diesel X Trail and I hardly notice it on the back. Towing my caravan empty, as it was when I brought it home from the dealer, it did not tow that well. The nose-weight was too low. Once loaded up with our usual gear it tows like a dream.
Colin, you keep claiming that towing a caravan that is heavier than the kerb weight of your car can invalidate your insurance. Do you have any evidence of this? I have never ever seen any car insurance conditions that stipulate any towing regulations other than those of the vehicle manufacturer. Given that the kerb weight has no legal relevance, is not a plated weight and has no formal definition I cannot see how any car insurance company can possibly have this in their conditions, especially as on many cars there is no reference on the vehicle or the V5 as to what the kerb weight actually is. If any company refused a claim because of such a vague clause they would most likely find themselves in trouble with the insurance ominbus.
I have no evidence of it whatsoever, and notice I said COULD invalidate your insurance. Really I was only repeating what others have said on here. It does seem quite possible though as insurance companies have a habit of looking out for ways not to pay out!
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Best Regards,
Colin
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via mobile 29/1/2024 at 12:39am
