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Subject Topic: Is the 85% rule AS relevant these days
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13/3/2013 at 2:09pm
 Location: Lancashire
 Outfit:  Volvo X60 Coachman
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Not weighed 75kg for at least 26 years  

 

Bessie



13/3/2013 at 2:18pm
 Location:  Dumfries
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Quote: Originally posted by Tentz on 13/3/2013
The 70s Scania 110s & 111s as well as most other Scania models incl. the 1980s 112s & 92s had a trailer brake lever on the steering column, we were encouraged to to use these when pulling contractors trailers so we wore their brakes out, not ours.

This was not to be confused with the 'dead man' lever on the columns of UK built trucks of that era this was the emergency brake which locked everything up as last resort. On the Scania the dead man was incorporated into the handbrake.




You are correct , at least you corroborate what I said earlier.
Volvo F89 , F88 and early F10s , 12s and 16s were also the same.
You had to be careful though because if operated without the foot brake it meant the trailer brake lights did not come on so there was indication to following traffic you were slowing down


13/3/2013 at 2:59pm
 Location: Blackburn Lancashire
 Outfit: Coachman Laser 650 and Discovery
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I think we need to make a distinction here. We obviously have a good number of experienced drivers, who are confident in what they do.

We also have a bigger group of people who have never done it before, and we're trying to make one rule work for the two groups.

As Bessie says, caravans are getting heavier. I also feel that cars are getting lighter, in pursuit of economy. This doesn't make the 85% rule less necessary, but it must make it harder to achieve. So, if anything, we should go up a size in tow cars.

Jim


13/3/2013 at 3:03pm
 Location: DURHAM
 Outfit: Mondeo TItanium 140 Avondale Mayfly 25
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I stand corrected, I have just been looking at car regs and I apologise for any confusion I caused.


15/3/2013 at 5:36pm
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In theory, a heavy caravan towed by a light car is inherently unstable. The 85% guideline is a guideline for inexperienced towers.

Technology cannot be allowed to become a substitute for stability though. An inherently unstable that is covered up with a stabiliser and electronic aids remains an unstable outfit. There will become a point where the technology is defeated by physics and this is liable to happen very quickly.

Having said that, I always used to tow well under the 85% figure, at one point around 60%. Having then changed my caravan for a heavier one which had a wider axle, I found that despite coming up in excess of 70% the outfit felt more stable.

Having since changed the car the car for a lighter one, we are now up to 92% which was initially a concern. However, the lighter car is just as stable towing if not slightly better than the previous one was. I can only assume this is down to the lower centre of gravity and the tow ball being closer to the axle on a hatchback than it was on a 4x4.

My conclusion: While the weight ratio is important to stability, it is not the be all and end all. There are many other factors that will have an effect.

With all the best intentions of loading and checking the caravan's nose weight, how many actually consider the effect the weight in the car will have on the car's stability? How can an unstable car possibly become stable by hitching a caravan on the back?

For all the hype that the 85% guideline gets, along with correct caravan loading and nose weight, the weight distribution in the car gets very little attention. Large amounts of weight in the boot is effectively adding to nose weight although it is rarely taken into the equation.


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15/3/2013 at 6:21pm
 Location: Blackburn Lancashire
 Outfit: Coachman Laser 650 and Discovery
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Well said

Jim


15/3/2013 at 8:06pm
 Location:  Surrey
 Outfit: Peugeot Boxer Utah + Lunar Ariva
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Learning all the time.

 I have to have a wheelchair in our car plus we put food taken with us in the car. Although we take all 3 back seats out to give us the room to put the extra in.

Are we wrong. We always check the noseweight. But not after we have connected up.



-------------
Chrissie

Be Strong-Think positive.


15/3/2013 at 9:11pm
 Location: Blackburn Lancashire
 Outfit: Coachman Laser 650 and Discovery
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No, that's ok. The reference is to axle weights on all vehicles.
The front axle can only weigh so much.
So can the rear axle
The total is another number, not necessarily the other two added together.
The there's Gross Train Weight, you can't exceed that for everything.

What needs to be avoided in this case is overloading the rear axle. It's already carrying the noseweight of the caravan. You then add to that anything you load over the back axle.

You will probably be ok. It's the people with four bikes who have the problems. Just look from the side. Avoid letting the back end f the van droop too much, the van and caravan need to be straight, not a v shape.

Jim


15/3/2013 at 9:18pm
 Location:  Surrey
 Outfit: Peugeot Boxer Utah + Lunar Ariva
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Thank you we do check whether we look straight between car & c.van. We seem to float along so we must be doing something right as its level right through the units. Lovely and straight.

Thanks for info.



-------------
Chrissie

Be Strong-Think positive.


15/3/2013 at 10:02pm
 Location: Blackburn Lancashire
 Outfit: Coachman Laser 650 and Discovery
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Any time

Jim


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16/3/2013 at 6:30am
 Location: None Entered
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I was referring to people that have noseweight that it on the limit of the cars capacity then have the boot filled to the brim with luggage and bikes strapped the the back of the car with the back wheels buried deep inside the arches.

It's a particular issue with vehicles with a large overhang over the back axle which not only gives more room for overloading in the boot, also allows the weight to be placed further behind the axle so the balance of the car is upset further.

Driving an overloaded car is just as bad as towing an overloaded caravan and yet very rarely gets a mention. Take a look at some of the estate cars you see on the road around holiday hotspots in the summer and you will soon see what I mean. Caravanners are probably not as bad as campers who have to use the boot unless they have a trailer and even then they often load the car to it's limits.

I have also seen people who have excessive noseweight taking things out of the caravan and putting them into the boot. To my way of thinking this achieves nothing as the weight is still applied to the back of the car.

Beanpark: If you think you may have overloaded your boot then get the rear axle weighed and compare this with the vehicle limits.


16/3/2013 at 10:50am
 Location: Walsall
 Outfit: Unicorn Barcelona 2 & Kia Sorento
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The 85% guide line will always be relevent!!!

When a sudden side wind hits you the lower the ratio the better.

When incidents occur that are out of your control, and you have to take avoiding action you need a car that will control the caravan not a caravan that will control the car.

I have towed with ratio's up to 100%, and only when reducing to 70% did I realise how much better it is.

I now tow at 85% with a twin axle and it is no where near as good as the lower ratio's. That said it is extreemy stable, which is not how I would describe my experience of towing at 100%.



-------------
Regards

Steve




16/3/2013 at 11:22am
 Location: Blackburn Lancashire
 Outfit: Coachman Laser 650 and Discovery
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DaveCoaches, you're playing my song. I've been saying all that for a long time.
People just try to do too much with too little. What they need is a Transit van. I hate to see overloading of any kind. I was coming up the A55 from Wales at 60mph when a car passed me towing a camping trailer. It had lights, only one of which worked, but you couldn't really see it because of the bikes hanging over the back and sides,
The car was packed full of blankets and children, and carrying. Large roof box.

He was doing about 70mph, and the trailer was twitching about quite a lot, to the point where I slowed down to give him some room.
The trailer picked up a wheel and started to hop from one wheel to the other.

I flashed my headlights without effect, and he was saved by a queue ahead. I would have booked him immediately if I could.

Jim


17/3/2013 at 6:59am
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most of the above posts are down to the fact that its the nut that holds the steering wheel thats very important, if its a bit loose your stuffed.

-------------
alpiner


18/3/2013 at 6:42pm
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Quote: Originally posted by alpiner on 17/3/2013
most of the above posts are down to the fact that its the nut that holds the steering wheel thats very important, if its a bit loose your stuffed.



I read somewhere once the most dangerous part of a car is the nut behind the steering wheel so in the interests of safety I took mine off and threw it away...

I think the claim was flawed though as it made the car impossible to control.


18/3/2013 at 7:23pm
 Location: Rushden Northants
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When I worked for a Scania distributor in the mid 1970's, the trucks for the UK market were fitted with 3-line braking for the trailer:

Red for compressed air
Blue for the service brake
Yellow for the separate control on the steering column which applied the trailer brakes independently from the footbrake.

LHD chassis that came in were converted to 3-line by me, so that operators based in the UK could run with either UK or continental trailers, the continentals used 2-line brakes. We worked out a better scheme than that originally fitted for the UK, using standard Wabco parts.

I still have my 1971 Scania Training School notes and some manuals from those days.

As far as the 85% rule goes, many Land Rovers are legal at more than 100%, 2.2tonnes for a Discovery and 3.5tonnes for a fully laden trailer. That's about 160%.

There's another issue, a centre-axle trailer or caravan has a big effect on the attitude and stability of the towing vehicle, and in extremis can exert sufficient leverage through the towbar to lift the back of the car off the ground.

We tow at 3.5 tonnes all the time as our display engine and caravan trailer is that much when loaded, but it is a turntable drawbar trailer and apart from pushpull forces, it doesn't place any weight on the towing vehicle other than the drawbar and coupling weight.

Peter




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