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Subject Topic: Is the 85% rule AS relevant these days
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18/3/2013 at 8:45pm
 Location: Blackburn Lancashire
 Outfit: Coachman Laser 650 and Discovery
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Discoveries are also 3500kg. Freeanders are 2000.

Jim


19/3/2013 at 6:30pm
 Location: Rushden Northants
 Outfit: Mercedes 614D Conversion
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Quote: Originally posted by Greendemon315 on 18/3/2013
Discoveries are also 3500kg. Freeanders are 2000.

Jim



I was quoting vehicle unladen weights, Jim, in case your reply was intended for me?

Peter


19/3/2013 at 7:06pm
 Location: Blackburn Lancashire
 Outfit: Coachman Laser 650 and Discovery
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Sorry Peter, it was or you.

For some reason I thought you meant max tow weights. I do apologise.

Jim


22/3/2013 at 6:07pm
 Location: Rushden Northants
 Outfit: Mercedes 614D Conversion
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No worries.

Peter


23/3/2013 at 11:23am
 Location: Bolton Lancs
 Outfit: Bailey Orion 430-4 & Mitsubishi PHEV
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A lot depends on the tow car weight distribution too.
Rear wheel drive and 4 wheel drive cars tend to have a weight distribution of 50-50.
Front wheel drive cars are weight biased towards the front around 60-40 to 70-30.
With less rear weight the rear springs are softer so your correct nose weight will make your car sit down at the back
its suprising how often you see combos driving along almost scraping the jocky wheel along the road


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23/3/2013 at 1:40pm
 Location: perth
 Outfit: ace jubilee herald
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Hi all, DaveCoaches,I agree with your earlier post, you also touched on something of interest to me, wider wheel base on caravan.

I have access to two cars for towing.

Car A is a 80% match

Car B is a 88% match approx.... but to me car B feels a great deal more stable....

Engine size the same, to me the better stability comes from a larger wheel base & lower hight on car B.

The approx. match comes from the problem that I weight 52 kilos taking my kreb weight down by 23 kilos,so I carry the awing & poles behind the front seats on the floor of car thinking it will help the kerb weight. I carry only light things in the van,& always check the nose-weight each trip.Been driving for 36 years, towing for 10 years.

Your thoughts please, all the best,

Andy



-------------
no day you learn something,is wasted


23/3/2013 at 2:51pm
 Location: Blackburn Lancashire
 Outfit: Coachman Laser 650 and Discovery
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You can't alter the kerb weight by the way you load the car. It is a ixed figure.
Apart from that, yes there are a lot of factors that affect stability. One thing that has a big effect is rear overhang, the distance from the axle to the towball. That can make a huge difference.
Jim


23/3/2013 at 3:05pm
 Location: None Entered
 Outfit: Coachman Pastiche
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I found that when changing our caravan over, Andycapp, the new one felt much more stable behind the same car, despite being almost twice the weight. It was only when I swapped the mover across that I realised the wheelbase of the caravan was about 8 inches wider.

I don't think it was a weight distribution thing either as I frequently moved things around the old caravan in order to find the best balance for towing. The new one, I just hitched up after purchase and towed home without checking the noseweight or anything. Despite my concerns about the increased weight and size, I was shocked at just how stable it was.

When I changed the car, I found the opposite of what Andy Higham has described. I went from a 4x4 to a Mondeo and found the Mondeo just as stable if not fractionally better than the 4x4. The Mondeo has a much lower centre of gravity than the 4x4 though, making it inherently more stable when solo.

While obviously a heavier tow car should make for a more stable outfit, a more stable tow car must make for a more stable outfit then a top heavy tow car.

It seems that there are a lot of factors that effect stability, though there are only a small number that are usually taken into account.

Yes, weight ratios, nose weights and caravan loading do have an effect. However, loading of the tow car, wheel base, height, drag, tyre pressures, shock absorbers, road springs, weather conditions, road surface, tracking, suspension wear, ride height and many other things all have a significant impact and while this is a significant list, it is far from exhaustive.

Simply getting 3 or 4 of these right does not make the others unimportant. Any one of these being drastically wrong can turn an other wise stable outfit into a death trap.

With the right outfit, towing at 100% is far safer than towing an outfit at 85% that has other defects.

While the 85% is still and will always be important, it is far from the be all and end all.



23/3/2013 at 3:18pm
 Location: perth
 Outfit: ace jubilee herald
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Hi and thanks,me a bit thick17 book says kerb weight 1385k, no matter my weight, 1385 is my 100% ? Smaller over hang on car B

Andy



-------------
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23/3/2013 at 3:56pm
 Location: Blackburn Lancashire
 Outfit: Coachman Laser 650 and Discovery
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Yes.

Jim


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23/3/2013 at 7:41pm
 Location: Kennington OXFORD
 Outfit: 2005 Eccles Sterling Topaz 2 berth
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Apologies for not having read all of this thread, but feel the need to pass comment. RovingRanger - I agree with you to a large extent, especially in view of your long experience of towing. Personally, I think that the 85% guideline is a good thing mainly for new towers. However, I also like an outfit where the car has enough 'presence' to be the item 'in charge'. I started towing in 1973 and have had some breaks since, the longest being approx 6 years when we 'gave up' due to a failing hip. However, after a replacement hip (which incidentally due to my age is probably the best part of me now - lol) we eventually returned to towing. The cars I have towed with, from the start, have been Renault 16GL, Renault 20TS, BMW 520, Vauxhall Cavalier CD, Vauxhall Cavalier SRI, Rover 45TDI, Saab 1.9 Tid Sportwagon manual and latest car (will be tugging with it for the first time in April) same model Saab but auto. I have always favoured a car as heavy as possible in relation to the caravan, but was a bit restricted with the Rover due to the low manufacturer's towing limit. The diesel engine was very capable but the limit of 1000kg restricted us to firstly a Pathfinder folder then an Elddis Whirlwind (both 1000kg max)
The Saab is great and I like the weight, stability, and low overhang, all of which give the outfit a nice 'planted' feel.
However, each to their own, and RovingRanger, if you are happy with the way your outfit handles etc, good on yer. Enjoy it and happy towing.


24/3/2013 at 12:31pm
 Location: Staffs
 Outfit: Swift Challenger 490 SEL & VW Tiguan
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Best behaved outfit we had was an 850 MIRO/1050kg MTPLM Abbey & a 1.6 petrol Corolla at 1300kg unladen. It had one of the old blade type stabilisers, & was a lovely outfit to tow.

After getting our 1270kg MIRO / 1500kg MTPLM Swift we've had a couple of tow-cars, & tried a 4x4. First up a Mondeo, Very well behaved tow car, but you knew you had a hefty weight behind you. Tried a Kia Sorrento but wasnt impressed. Felt very safe but didnt like the auto box & somewhat leisurely throttle response. The 1850kg unladen Galaxy we have now is much better tow car.

We still carry on the old habits though, heavy items in the car. Weight distribution kept correct. Tyre pressures rigorously checked. These have a massive effect. Someone I know is of the opinion that it doesnt matter how badly he loads his caravan, his Sorrento will just handle it.

 

But above all, standard of driving. Sharp sudden inputs result in simmilar outputs. Keep the speed down, we never exceed probably 55mph, but often get passed by 4x4 engined outfits at easily 15mph more. I recall a Range Rover Sport once, ploughing down lane 3 in horrendous rain. Complete idiocy. 



24/3/2013 at 1:19pm
 Location: None Entered
 Outfit: Coachman Pastiche
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Isn't the Galaxy powered by the same unit as the Mondeo but pulling more weight along? I would have thought it would have felt more underpowered than the Mondeo.

I have the 2 litre TDCi Mondeo with the 130PS engine which gives a better power to weight ratio than a lot of 4x4s.

Of course, if you were using a 1.6 petrol Mondeo that would explain it.


24/3/2013 at 2:22pm
 Location: Staffs
 Outfit: Swift Challenger 490 SEL & VW Tiguan
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It was the older shape 130hp TDCi Mondeo, like yours. The Galaxy is the VW 130hp engine. Was referring to the Sorrento as underpowered. The Mondeo is a really powerful car, & even with the caravan on, it pulled like a train even with 170k on the clock!!!.


24/3/2013 at 6:46pm
 Location: Kennington OXFORD
 Outfit: 2005 Eccles Sterling Topaz 2 berth
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Quote: Originally posted by takisawa on 24/3/2013

Best behaved outfit we had was an 850 MIRO/1050kg MTPLM Abbey & a 1.6 petrol Corolla at 1300kg unladen. It had one of the old blade type stabilisers, & was a lovely outfit to tow.

After getting our 1270kg MIRO / 1500kg MTPLM Swift we've had a couple of tow-cars, & tried a 4x4. First up a Mondeo, Very well behaved tow car, but you knew you had a hefty weight behind you. Tried a Kia Sorrento but wasnt impressed. Felt very safe but didnt like the auto box & somewhat leisurely throttle response. The 1850kg unladen Galaxy we have now is much better tow car.

We still carry on the old habits though, heavy items in the car. Weight distribution kept correct. Tyre pressures rigorously checked. These have a massive effect. Someone I know is of the opinion that it doesnt matter how badly he loads his caravan, his Sorrento will just handle it.

 

But above all, standard of driving. Sharp sudden inputs result in simmilar outputs. Keep the speed down, we never exceed probably 55mph, but often get passed by 4x4 engined outfits at easily 15mph more. I recall a Range Rover Sport once, ploughing down lane 3 in horrendous rain. Complete idiocy. 





Takisawa - you are so right with what you say regarding loading, tyre pressures and sudden inputs. From my 40 plus years on motorbikes (not any more...) I learned that one must always endeavour to keep driving movements as smooth as possible, and this certainly helps when towing. Tyre pressures, yes most important. I do however ruefully admit to straying occasionally over the speed limit; our Saab/Swift outfit is only about 62% and with the short rear overhang and weight of the car is very stable.
Happy towing all.



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