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CT = Chelsea Tractor.  I'm a biker, not a cyclist, I often refer to the car as the cage.  Nothing derogatory about it in the slightest. 

Of course, you are right.  There is a small chance that the WAG driving her kid to school, and then to the nail parlour will, later in the year, grab hold of that caravan and lug it off to the campsite.  Highly unlikely, but very possible. 

So really, you are trying to say that all these people, that drive brand new 40/50/60 grand monsters, can't afford another car?  That hubby isn't driving another big luxury car?  That the VED affects them so much they have to budget to afford just the one?  Do me a favour.

For those that do have 4x4's and can't afford two vehicles, are generally driving around in older vehicles.  Should they only be used, even once for towing, fair enough.  Generally you'll see a tow bar fitted.  Or does Miss WAG remove her towbar after the camping holiday to keep up her image?

As I've said, if you drive a regular 4x4 and do so to tow, even just once, can't afford two cars, you hav my sympathy and support.  Yet if you drive some huge engined, expensive CT type 4x4, just for the sake of it.  As most, SEEM, to do, then it's your own problem, you deal with it.

No, I am no 4x4 bigot, I do understand that it is a extremely small portion of people that have been effected by this that drive CT's, if any at all.  I am also of the understanding that the Fiat Panda 4x4 is being hammered too on the congestion charge?  I think it is only because it has become trendy to drive big Luxurious 4x4 vehicles.  I only use the term CT to differentiate between those who never use their vehicles for towing, never would think of camping or caravaning and just use it like a car.(ie BMW Merc). 

I don't understand why someone, who has no real use for one, would use one in the city.  If you drive one to feel safer, get off the roads, get some more training and build your confidence in your driving abilty, don't just get the biggest vehicle you can.  Wouldn't a Volvo be just as, if not, safer?

Having just had a look at the dvla site it seems that you can get hammered just as much by driving a petrol merc E220.  By the title of this thread I am being asked to support Not just towers that have been done over, but anyone who drives and large engined car.

My sympathies to those who have gone out and bought a car registered in 2001 or later, that have been caught out by this.  If you bought a vehicle, 4x4 or not, that gets hammered by this new system and knew about it, or buy another one, then I have no sympathy.

How many are considering a Honda CRV for their next purchase?  How many will still go and buy a BMW/Merc etc?  Dp they have to harm me in anyway before I can feel that there mode of transport is highly unnessecary whilst driving around a clogged up city or town?  And again I say it's about those who could use something smaller, who do have more than one vehicle.

Someone here mentioned they have a 4x4 for towing and a small run around for everything else.  Great, sensible idea.  If you can afford to do that fine.  If you can't then fine.  Drive what you like. 

But if you are a soccer mom, could drive something smaller, but choose not to, and choose to drive 40/50 grand car.  Don't expect me to feel sorry for you.

As has been said, if all of the UK went out and bought a push bike nothing would change in regards to climate change due to the small amount the UK produces in comaprison to the rest of the world.

the ''SMALL''amount of money that the government will make from the tax is a drop in the ocean against the global pollution that the likes of China and the Usa push out so no matter how much they go on about it our contribution will only get swallowed up with the rest of our taxes and make no difference to global warming

                                                        doug 

We have just towed our van back from buxton along that bikers racetrack - the cat and fiddle road.  Who paid for all the signs near all the bends on this road with warnings for bikers and the aircraft used to try and get people to ride sensibly?  Other road users and when bikes are raced in this way I bet fuel consumption is little better than some so called gas guzzlers.  I don't dislike bikes  and can't understand why some bikers dislike 4x4s.

I quite often see 4x4s towing trailers with race bikes on, so their sport is going to get more expensive when the new ved bands are implemented. 

Brian

Ssangyong Musso, Korean built 4x4, German made Mercedes 2.9TDi giving 37 mpg with and 29mpg without our caravan, and that's usually the A9 and into the highlands, and running on recycled cooking oil (blended with 10% in summer and 25% derv in wintertime). How does that compare with a standard family saloon?
The extra weight and wider track make towing much safer, again how does that compare?

We had our 'Chelsea Tractor' as a tow car, a work car and because an elderly relative cannot get into and out of standard (lower) car seats and needs the height of the Musso seat to slide in and out.

It was an affordable motor for folks like us on lower incomes, cost £4000 secondhand four years ago, and can pull an older (thus heavier) but cheaper and affordable 'van, has a lower tax banding, costs less to insure.

All components are 'commercial' size; hence wearing out less, are common to lots of Merc parts and a lot of the car is plastic, so less rusting. The tyres are bigger, but have deeper tread and outlast car tyres by at least 100%.

I could go on giving reasons why we have what we have, and so could every caravanner on the site, but we own what we can afford and spend what we can afford. So why gripe if soneone else has more/seeks more or spends more?

We live in Scotland, holiday in Scotland (mostly) and get away on the weekends where we can, but in winter even a short trip away with the caravan would be out of the question without a four wheel drive vehicle for us. We spend our time and money locally, and never holiday abroad as that's what we can afford, and that's our choice too, so should we give it all up and cycle everywhere, and have no holidays? Or buy a wee 900cc car and a tent, struggle to get everyone in and comfy, and all for what? So that the hooligan element out there on the roads can buy souped up cars and spend all day and most of the night 'cruising' and doing burn outs? I shudder to think what some of their annual running costs are...............Now there's where our time and attention might be better spent putting a stop to irresponsible car use!

I reckon that 99.9% of contributors to these Forums are sensible like minded folks with the same aim in mind; having a relaxing time with their chosen outfits. I also reckon that, like me, few hate bikers (I'm a motorcyclist too) or cyclists (and I'm a mountain biker) or 'CT' drivers. I may question their choice of transport, just as I question cycling up the busy A9 or using my motorcycle in winter to go camping.

Lots of car, bus, truck and bike users out there question spending money towing a tin box around the country, holding up traffic and parking up for the weekend alongside total strangers, and paying for the privelege. So in some eyes we can't win anyway, so we at least should stick together. When the caravan is unhitched we become 'normal' drivers again!

Sure, this has been a long thread, but a good one as we can all have opinions, and if they differ; so what? Are we not civilised enough to differ and still remain as we are; fellow caravanners?

We'll not be reading these '4x4 bashing' threads for much longer anyway as the Musso is up for sale. A change in our circumstances means that we'l not need to tow with it, and given Gordon 'Greedy B..*.rd' Brown's constant pressure on motorists to be more Green (a disguise for tax raising measures to pay out more bloody benefit money) we'll change to something cheap and economical to run.

So we'll watch the site for 'tight fisted Scots' threads instead!

Brian, I guess for the same reason some car drivers hate bikers, some bikers hate car drivers, pushbikes, cars, motorbikes, 4x4's vans, trucks, buses, blah blah blah.  Each one has certain users that "hate" other forms of transport. 

Jake, You say you use your 'chelsea tractor' for towing.  IMO, it isn't a 'chelsea tractor'  It's a 4x4.  It is being used for inteded purpose.  From the posts I have read I haven't seen anyone just bashing 4x4's.  If you think that I am bashing all 4x4 drivers you are wrong.  It just so happens that these Chelsea Tractors are 4x4.  If they were two wheel drive I'd feel the same.  The next thing you will see is someone will put some chrome and tinted windows on a real tractor, and the rest will follow. 

Yes, there are lots of Clarkson type sheep out there that will bash vanners just because it is seen as the in thing to do in their social group.  Myself though?  I'm not a big fan of his.  I drive a bus for a living.  I for one, don't mind being behind slower vehicles.  If you drive slower than the limit I don't mind, I am being paid.  If I am in the car, I am usually in no rush so will pass when the opportunity arrives.  It could easily be a bus or truck I am behind.  If I am on my bike, within a few seconds I can be passed and a small dot on the horizon.

So, for me, and for my final time of saying.  You don't need to justify to anyone why you have a particular thing.  I only find those that drive around town, fly off on a foreign hotel holiday at the beach and never need to use the 4x4 function a total waste of space.  I feel like it is because certain makes have become an item of status and therefore very popular that these schemes have come into place.  They've become an easy target of which most/everyone who posts here has become a victim.

I have family who are farmers on Ilkley Moor.  Our two wheel drive struggles like hell to get up to them without towing and an empty boot.  First gear and high revs all the way.  So believe me, I understand why people use big 4x4's.  If I lived there I would have to buy one too.

A few months ago, as you'll probably know.  The free national travel for over 60's was introduced.  The initial costs of which were £1billion with a £60million shortfall.  Approx £2million per local council.  Of this about £600,000 was taken from council tax.  The rest was paid for by the Gov.  This has been touted as for Over 60's, yet if you are classed as disabled, whether physically or mentally, including learning disorders ADHD etc no matter how slight, you qualify for free travel.

I mentioned this before as a good idea abused and mis-managed.

Every time a free card ticket is issued a set amount is charged.  From what I am lead to believe, one fee for local travel and another for cross boundary.

For example.  You and I are having to pay for Mr X, who is over 60 but physically in good health.  He is walking down the road and happens to see a bus coming.  He then runs 50-100 yards to catch the bus.  Then shows his free pass to travel 100 yards to the next stop.

Mrs Y sees a bus picking a passenger up, she runs 50 yards to catch the bus to travel to her destination on a circular route.  If she'd have walked 100 yards further in the same direction she was running, she would have been at the bus stop she travelled 10 mins to get to.

Boy C has a slight learning disorder.  He goes to a normal state school.  He runs on the bus whilst on his mobile, arranging a game of football with his mates for later.

Mr D has dyslexia, he works full time.  Travels on the bus to and from work.  What would be around $15 per week.

Another is mentally disabled.  Though not seriously.  He has a pass which allows free travel for a companion.  Though he regular travels on his own.  Will sit on a bus for 10 mins waiting for it to depart, just to travel to the next stop.  He'll also ask people he is waiting with if they want a free ride on his pass.

Also, the man who has made his fortune, lives in a million pound house and has two jags on the drive, no not presscott.  He and his equally wealthy friends will now have free travel to and from town for their night out.  Where they would udually have given some welcome trade to a local cabby.

We are now having to pay for all these people to go swimming too.

Quote: Originally posted by Midnite on 15/6/2008

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IMO, it isn't a 'chelsea tractor'  It's a 4x4.  It is being used for inteded purpose. 

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I agree completely, a Ssangyong isn't a Chelsea Tractor.  

I think that particular description, if it is to mean anything at all, has to be reserved for the ruck of expensive mainly European high image 4x4s such as the Range Rover, Land Rover Discovery, Porsche Cayenne, BMW X5, Audi Allroad, Mercedes M class, VW Tuareg and so on that young city high-fliers regard as symbols of them having "made it". 

With due respect to their owners, I don't believe that many of these folks would regard a Ssangyong, a Kia or even a Mitsubishi, Isuzu, Nissan, Jeep or Toyota as being suffiently aspirational to merit the description Chelsea Tractor.

Cheers
Andrew

This new road tax for cars structure is simply unjust. It penalises people for vehicle choice decisions already made, while claiming to be 'green' by penalising gas-guzzlers. If you're rich and run around in a Range Rover/Land Cruiser/Mercedes 4x4/BMW X5 etc, a few hundred a year extra  on the tax disc isn't going to bother you. In fact, it'll make your sneers bigger. Your accountant probably has some way of writing-off both it and the high fuel consumption costs. You don't even think of caravanning so you won't be reading this.  My X-Trail was bought in 2004. At that time no one had any idea the Gov was going to trot off down this particularly unfair route. The Gov's cynical intention is that the wider public will be scammed for lots more tax on tax discs and fuel, and their 'friends' won't be bothered because they fit into the aforesaid group. They can kiss goodbye to my vote and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Life in Opposition, Gordon? you'll be on the Back Benches in days. I'm going to see my (Conservative) MP next week, and point out all this. Worse still, the Gov has brought it in at a time when huge amounts of extra revenue are coming in because of rising oil costs and pump prices. My X-Trail does up to 37mpg on a run, more typically 35mpg, does 29-31mpg in West Mids general use, and 25mpg towing my caravan. It is NOT a gas guzzler, but after next year I understand it'll be costing me over £350 pa road tax. And how much a gallon will petrol be by then, Mr Darling?

TTC.