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I'm afraid they don't say a good starting point is 87%.  What they do say is this:-

"Ideally, for a newcomer to caravanning, the actual laden weight of the caravan should not exceed 85% of the kerbweight of the car."

I know this is only a guideline, and not a hard and fast rule, but it's there to protect people with little or no experience.  Like speed limits, there is a tendency these days to look on the limit as a general guide rather than an absolute maximum.

That means the ratio should be 85% or less.  Preferably less.  How long before we adopt the same attitude with the legal weights?  I am 20kg over the legal maximum.  Will it be all right?  Of course it won't.

It's not cruel to new people to give them good advice. It's sensible.  Accounts of how people have towed stable outfits at 100% or moe are not helpful.  How would youfeel if you advised somebody to disregard the 85% rule and then found they had been in a terrible accident because they had overstepped the bounds of their experience?

I'm not prepared to do that.  I feel the Coroner's court would have something to say.  Do you remember the outcry when Jeremy Clarkson wrongly advised people to try to power out of snaking, and then a man died through following the advice?  We certainly don't need a repeat of that.

We all have a responsibility here.

Jim

Quote: Originally posted by Greendemon315 on 22/8/2009

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I'm afraid they don't say a good starting point is 87%.  What they do say is this:-

"Ideally, for a newcomer to caravanning, the actual laden weight of the caravan should not exceed 85% of the kerbweight of the car."

I know this is only a guideline, and not a hard and fast rule, but it's there to protect people with little or no experience.  Like speed limits, there is a tendency these days to look on the limit as a general guide rather than an absolute maximum.

That means the ratio should be 85% or less.  Preferably less.  How long before we adopt the same attitude with the legal weights?  I am 20kg over the legal maximum.  Will it be all right?  Of course it won't. 

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Sorry Bill, my error.  I meant to say 85%.  Sadly my typing skills are obviously not up to scratch.  However, the manufacturer's tow limit does have a lot of bearing on things.  People don't always understand the difference between towing a caravan - probably just about the most unstable trailer there is - and a well loaded flatbed or box trailer, with which you could quite happily go up to the legal limit.

This just goes to show that a novice can't be expected to understand these differences, which is why the Caravan Club issues these guidelines in the first place.  If we went and put this example in front of the CC, I have no doubt at all that they would say it wasn't a good idea, which is exactly what I have said.

I don't understand a couple of things.  I'm not trying to attack anyone personally here, just making some general points.

Firstly, how do you get into a situation wher the caravan is too heavy for the car?  Surely that's the first thing you check before buying.  Secondly, why can't we just tell people who are in that situation that what they have is not a suitable match? 

It's almost as though we are trying to spare their feelings. I am genuinely sorry that they have got themselves in a situation where they have to change either the car or the caravan, but we all make mistakes - I can point to some big ones of my own - and it usually costs money to make it right.

The situation we have here is a case in point.  It's no good telling a novice that things will be all right if they just take it easy.  That certainly wasn't the Caravan Club's intention when they drew up the guidelines.  We should at least try to get it right.

This particular case is compounded by the fact that it's a company car.  It's very much up to the owner, rather than the driver, to make these decisions.  What do you think the company and their insurers would say, if a bad decision here led to an accident.  Would they pay out?  I rather doubt it.  They don't need much excuse.

To sum up, you seem to be a law abiding sort of person, as I am.  Why, then, do we seem to be on opposite sides of ths ddiscussion?  Surely, all we're interested in is safety.   Other considerations are secondary.

As an aside, I would be very happy to discuss legal limits and licensing with you.  We may agree more than you think, or maybe not.   Where would you like to start?

Jim

Quote: Originally posted by Greendemon315 on 22/8/2009

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Sorry Bill, my error.  I meant to say 85%.  Sadly my typing skills are obviously not up to scratch.  However, the manufacturer's tow limit does have a lot of bearing on things.  People don't always understand the difference between towing a caravan - probably just about the most unstable trailer there is - and a well loaded flatbed or box trailer, with which you could quite happily go up to the legal limit.

This just goes to show that a novice can't be expected to understand these differences, which is why the Caravan Club issues these guidelines in the first place.  If we went and put this example in front of the CC, I have no doubt at all that they would say it wasn't a good idea, which is exactly what I have said.

I don't understand a couple of things.  I'm not trying to attack anyone personally here, just making some general points.

Firstly, how do you get into a situation wher the caravan is too heavy for the car?  Surely that's the first thing you check before buying.  Secondly, why can't we just tell people who are in that situation that what they have is not a suitable match? 

It's almost as though we are trying to spare their feelings. I am genuinely sorry that they have got themselves in a situation where they have to change either the car or the caravan, but we all make mistakes - I can point to some big ones of my own - and it usually costs money to make it right.

The situation we have here is a case in point.  It's no good telling a novice that things will be all right if they just take it easy.  That certainly wasn't the Caravan Club's intention when they drew up the guidelines.  We should at least try to get it right.

This particular case is compounded by the fact that it's a company car.  It's very much up to the owner, rather than the driver, to make these decisions.  What do you think the company and their insurers would say, if a bad decision here led to an accident.  Would they pay out?  I rather doubt it.  They don't need much excuse.

To sum up, you seem to be a law abiding sort of person, as I am.  Why, then, do we seem to be on opposite sides of ths ddiscussion?  Surely, all we're interested in is safety.   Other considerations are secondary.

As an aside, I would be very happy to discuss legal limits and licensing with you.  We may agree more than you think, or maybe not.   Where would you like to start?

Jim

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I have the same sort of problem with typing errors so my apologies for raising the topic. 

 You question about how do you get in the situation where the caravan is too heavy for the car, I think this is where you and I would disagree since I am perfectly happy with my 93% match on my outfit and I was very much aware of it when I bought the car. I interpreted the OP question as one looking for reassurance and from my point of view he should be quite happy with his outfit. When the CC published the Safe towing guidelines that I posted earlier the handling of cars and the tugging ability was completely different from what is available from a modern car, and from experience (17 years and 85k miles towing ) weight and ratio are not always the final thing in stability, my current combination is by far the most stable at 93% far more so than the Pajerro or the trooper where I was towing at something like 65%. Interestingly in the current handbook those guidelines do not appear.

It is difficult to say what the CC's intentions were when they set out the guidelines however what can be certain is that they were setting out something which everyone could access and have some comparison to start their towing experience with. I think the advent of easy communication with other caravanners over the internet adds an extra dimension to the equation in that people now can ask for a direct input from people with exactly the combination that they propose and so start with a better comparison. I disagree with you when you suggest that telling a novice to take it easy not sufficient reason to support them when they have a combination which is more than 85%, personally I think that saying your combination is 85% so you will be fine is more dangerous since to me it  gives a carte blanche for the driver to push a little too hard secure in the knowledge that they have a "stable outfit simply because it weighed in at 85% ". Surely it is far better to say that for a novice your outfit is not ideal but from experience with just such a combination  if you take great care, keep your speed down, load the caravan conservativelyto keep the weight down, keep the weight in the middle of the van and be very very wary when going downhill you should be fine. No matter how good the ratio the main problem is in the driver and his/her actions.

You mention the manufacturers towing limit as having a bearing upon things, in the legal sense the manufacturers limit is a civil limit as opposed to the legal limits which are actually placed upon by the licensing regulations and the construction and use regulations and enforced  by the criminal courts. If someone is unwise enough to exceed the manufacturers towing limit they will invalidate the warranty and will probably find themselves in the situation where they have nullified their insurance but this is all, Plod is generally only interested in things that there is a specific offence and they judge that by what is plated on the car and the caravan, though they would step in if after an accident the insurer said that the driver had nullified his insurance as then the driver would be charged with driving without insurance.  Abiding by the manufacturers towing limit  does not guarantee towing legally, for example my Mondeo has a towing limit of 1800kg and a max laden mass of 2025kg and a max train weight of 3600kg so if I had a fully laden car and a caravan weighing in at 1800kg I would exceed the maximum train weight for the car.

You mention the car as a company car and suggest that an insurance company might think twice about meeting a claim should the  OP have an accident whilst towing, they may consider this if they have not been informed that he would be towing ( everyone must inform their insurers that they are towing if only to preclude arguements later ) but if they have been informed then they can not wriggle out, he will be driving a combination allowed by his licence, neither vehicle will be overladen nor the mass for each axle be exceeded, and he will be towing less than his car manufacturers towing limit that being the case they have no grounds to argue and would not try to simply because they know they would lose.

What is good about discussions on forums like this one is that in general as you say people are law abiding citizens who have an interest in safety which is why I think the OP will be fine, he has the presence of mind to ask those who have experience of towing caravans for their advice and I would imagine that he would take the advice that is given to him. Personally I am aware that I amd driving a potentially dangerous object and try to the best of my ability to abide by the laws on the subject, however these laws do not always point to the safest way of doing things they simply place limits to which we all must abide or face the penalties. 

Hi Bill

Don't worry about the typing.  I suppose neither of us would make a good touch typist.  Let me say first off that I'm not trying to be confrontational, and I'm sure you're not either.  Just trying to get to the bottom of things. I'd also like to reassure the OP that it's not a personal attack, but he says he's a novice so we should check things.

Let me just raise a possibility that hasn't come up yet. How many times have we seen somebody come on this forum and say "I'm going to be towing at 85%, so that's fine isn't it?  A bot of investigation has then revealed that he has been using the max tow weight instead of the kerbweight to calculate that percentage, and the real figure is over 100%?  I've seen it a few times, and I would like to see the actual figures for the car and caravan in question, just to make sure this mistake has not been made.

Now I'll try to respond to your post point by point.  You know, we agree on so many things, but I believe we're looking at it from different angles.  You are talking about what's possible, and I'm talking about what I feel would be responsible advice to give to someone who, in terms not caravanning, knows nothing.  That's not meant to be demeaning, he might be a nuclear scientist for all I know, but he says he knows nothing about caravanning, so that's where I'm starting from.

You say you are happy with the 93% match on your outfit, and I have no problem with that at all.  However, you are very experienced, and knew what you were getting into.  17 years and 85k miles towing is very impressive.  Due to my extreme age, my figures are 44 years and 250k miles towing, so I've been there and seen most of it.  On many occasions, I've towed trailers right up to the legal maximum, which has ususally been 3500kg, depending on the vehicle I owned at the time.  Certainly far in excess of 100%.  Caravans, as you know, are a bit different, becasue they are among the least stable of trailers, and this is why we have the 85% guideline.

My current figure with a Jeep Grand Cherokee and an Abbey Spectrum is about 70%, and I'm very happy with that.  I do accept that the percentage is not everything when it comes to towing, but I really do like a heavy tow vehicle, and I need a 4 x 4 for other reasons, so that works for me.

I'm a bit surprised by what you say about the Pajero and Trooper.  I don't know what on or off road experience you have with a 4 x 4 but I will say that they don't naturally feel the same as a car.  Being a lot higher off the ground they have a greater tendency to roll, but only in extreme manoeuvres.  What they do have is sufficient weight to "tame the trailer", and should provide a very stable tow.

I think I'm right in saying that the original CC fogure was not 85%.  I think it was lower (I stand to be corrected on this) and it was raised to take into account the increased ability of the modern car.

I understand your point about risk compensation, in that people think they must be OK because they are under 85%, but I do think, as long as they are reminded to do so, most novices will be happy to learn at a gentle pace.  You wouldn't learn to swim by jumping off the high board into the deep end of the pool, and neither should you learn to tow by buying the biggest caravan you can legally use.  It makes sense to learn on something lighter.

If you look through my past posts, you will find I have always advised on safe loading, speeds, and extra attention to downhill stretches, so we're on the same page there.

I'm sure the Police would act if they had information that a vehicle was towing more than the manufacturer's limit.  They would just call it something different, like unsafe load (by definition).  It would be interesting to hear the views of a Traffic Officer on this.  I agree with your comments about warranty and insurance, so I'm sure we can agree that exceeding this limit is a bad thing.

I'm glad you raised the train weight issue.  So many people just go by the 85% "rule" and think that's all they have to worry about.  In fact you need to look at

85%

Max tow

Train weight

Axle loadings (especially rear)

Nose weight

Only if all of these are OK can you tow the caravan.

Of course he would have to inform the insuarance company, through his employers, that he would be towing, but I bet there's also a clause in there that says everything must be legal (which it appears to be), and also sensible.  I can imagine a barrister acting for the insurance company saying " Is it not correct that the CC recommend a towing liit of 85% for a novice, and yet your outfit was 93%?"  Not a good situation, adn one you would always avoid if you could.  An insurance company will always try to avoid payment, and I think they have grounds to show that this would be ill-advised.

I fully accept your last paragraph, and hope that the OP is indeed fine, but I maintain that it would have been better to check out te figures before getting the caravan, so as to arrive at a combination better suited to a novice.

Best regards

Jim

I think we probably only vary when it comes to thinking that 85% is the be all and end all of what we should be saying, If someone comes to me and says I am new to towing and my fully laden caravan is 93% of my cars kerbweight the I would say don't worry too much about that it is not uncommon but if you reduce the load you intend to carry for your first trips then you are likely to have an outfit that will be nearer to an 85% match than you think.

I also doubt that the insurance company would consider the 85% guidleine as anything but a guideline and I doubt that they would even think about asking that sort of question. I also think that if they had asked me the question that you suggested when I first started towing my answer would have been that as I am not a member of the CC so I can not comment, and I would then add that the dealer who sold me the caravan assured me that the outfit was perfectly legal and correct. All that comes into a court case is fact legal limits and the 85% guideline does not come into that category.

All I ever want to see is that other caravanners know what is possible and what is not possible and that they set off on their trips with an outfit that is basically safe and that they have the right advice to keep their outfits safe whilst on the road. If people ask and listen to the advice that is available on forums like this one and act on the advice given then they have every expectation that they will arrive at their destination safely.

Yes, we probably quite close - afer all that.  For the record, I don't think 85% is the be all and end all.    I would happily use your outfit, and I would happily use the outfit in question here.

What I do, like you, is what I feel is safe.  My only point is that it's far better for a novice to develop a feeling for towing, (by which I mean things like being able to tell the difference between the natural motion of the caravan and the beginning of a snake) while he is not fully committed in terms of weight.  The bigger the differential between the weights of towcar and caravan, the more chance he has.

I think your faith in insurance companies may be slightly misplaced.  Depends on the company of course, but a great many of them will try to get out of paying a claim if possible, and it would be very easy to suggest that the driver had behaved unreasonably.

I do feel we have to offer different advice to people, based on their experience.  What is wrong with saying stick with 85% for your first year, then you'll have enough experience to make your own judgement?  If all we're going to do is offer reassurance, we may well be compounding an error that could lead to unpleasant consequences.

Why take that risk, however small you may think it to be?  When buying a caravan, just check all the weights beforehand.  Then there would be no need for judgement calls like this.

Jim

Hi Pete

I know what you mean. I'm at 70% and it feels rock steady.  I often wonder if there's a case for a 75% limit.  I know that's probably contentious, but it might save a lot of problems.

Jim