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Subject Topic: skoda superb estate 4x4 (Topic Closed Topic Closed)
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30/1/2012 at 1:20pm
 Location: Midlands
 Outfit: Mondeo Avondale Gram
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Why are my facts wrong?

Towing and the Law



4% OR 25kg whichever is the higher...






30/1/2012 at 1:25pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Grampian91 on 30/1/2012


Why are my facts wrong?

Towing and the Law



4% OR 25kg whichever is the higher...





That is only a third party website (Swift Owners Club), so it is not guaranteed legal information.



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30/1/2012 at 4:10pm
 Location: Blackburn Lancashire
 Outfit: Coachman Laser 650 and Discovery
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Do you know, this place is getting more like a Court of Law every day.  We don't have to prove anything at all.  If you want to push the boundaries, that's up to you. I prefer to be well within the guidleines.

The European Directive, as quoted by the Caravan Club, is not a third party website, so we can take that as law.

They don't believe the Skoda and the Ranger would be a good match, only "possible".  At 97.5%, I wouldn't be keen.

You admit that a bigger towcar will provide a better match.  Why not just do that?  Why try to tow with the smallest possible car?  I just don't see what advantage you gain.

You may not agree with decisions based on weight, but the CC do.  Here's what they have to say:-

What does The Club recommend as a safe outfit/weight ratio for towing a caravan?

The principle must be to have the heaviest possible towcar for a given caravan, otherwise the chances of a swaying trailer becoming uncontrollable and snaking are very real.  Aim for a towed load 85% of the car's kerb weight (KW), or the vehicle manufacturer's towing limit, if lower.  The nearer the caravan laden weight approaches the one-to-one ratio, the more careful the driver must be.  Remember that the towed weight is the actual laden weight (ALW) that the car is asked to pull (empty weight of caravan plus what you add), not the theoretical Maximum Authorised Weight (MAW) or (from 1999 production models) Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass (MTPLM).

 

We are often asked, ‘why 85%’, rather than 90% or 75%, say? The connection between weight ratio and stability has been proven through The Club’s own testing of cars and caravans, the wealth of member feedback we receive, and not least the scientific research we have sponsored. We picked 85% as the highest ratio we were comfortable using for universal recommendations, thus allowing the widest choice of compatible cars and caravans, while being confident that owners should find their outfit safe and comfortable to tow. We have, in fact, increased the ratio recommendation over the years, as car and caravan technology has improved, and more research has been carried out. When this advice was offered in the 1960s, the recommended maximum weight ratio was 70%. This increased to 80% in the 1970s, and to 85% in the 1980s. It is not likely that we will increase the recommendation further for the foreseeable future, though.

This does take into account the safety features you mention.

I've already said I would be OK with 5% on a twin axle, so you don't need to keep looking.  The CC agree, but they prefer 7% where possible.  It is possible, with a car having sufficient download allowance.

 



30/1/2012 at 5:45pm
 Location: Kent
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So universal adoption of ABS, majority of suitable cars having ESP, improvements in caravan tyres, caravans computer designed with stability in mind & the availability of ATC are not advances in safety since the '80s then?
The passage you quote above also states the ratio is in relation to the actual mass of the caravan rather than the MTPLM.
The club also state that for an experienced caravanner that ratios approaching 100% are possible. In the real world we have to accept that not everyone is able to buy the ideal row car so advice on suitable matches also is needed.


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30/1/2012 at 5:48pm
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"The European Directive, as quoted by the Caravan Club, is not a third party website, so we can take that as law."

Oh goody!

"Commission Directive 95/48/EC of 20 September 1995 adapting to technical progress Council Directive 92/21/EEC relating to the masses and dimensions of motor vehicles of category M1"

"Angus, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to dedicate my weekend to proving what most of us know. Life's too short."

What we DO know is that:-
" 2.5. 'Maximum static vertical load on the coupling point` of the vehicle means the technically permissible vertical load transmitted, when the vehicle is stationary, by the drawbar of the trailer to the vehicle coupling and acting via the centre of the coupling device. This load must be specified by the manufacturer" This is taken from the directive
and:-
"3.3.2. The technically permissible static vertical load on the coupling device is that stated by the manufacturer; this load must be not less than 4 % of the maximum permissible towable mass and not less than 25 kg. "Again taken from the directive, which deals with the towing vehicle - no reference is made, suggested or insinuated to any trailer.

"The manufacturers' max tow has no legal standing," - Really? Despite it being a requirement of this regulation that the manufacturer MUST state "3.3.1. The technically permissible maximum towable mass in that stated by the manufacturer." Without that the vehicle would not have type approval as it is mandatory to provide this information in order to obtain type approval certification, without which you cannot use the vehicle legally anyway.


"I was only pointing out, with relevance to the CC leaflet I quoted, that there is a minimum noseweight, which is related to the MTPLM of the caravan."
Find me anything, anywhere in the EC Regulation which indicates this and I`ll buy you a pint

"Well Angus, I suggest that you review your thinking."
- Bit rude, but its what we have come to expect.

"The MTPLM is the legally recognised figure." Where? Not in this regulation, it isn`t even mentioned.

"The manufacturers' max tow has no legal standing,"- Well., as I`m on a roll I`ll go back to this one, it appears that the `manufacturer max tow` which I have already proven does have legal standing - isn`t a number plucked from thin air and has to meet certain criteria in order to qualify for Type Approval :-" 3.3.3. The motor vehicle towing a trailer must be able to start the vehicle combination - laden to its maximum mass - five times on an uphill gradient of at least 12 % within five minutes."

"His theory is that the European Directive (which I do accept is not written very clearly)" - Yes it is, it isn`t in the least ambiguous.


"His theory is that the European Directive (which I do accept is not written very clearly)" Now try reading and understanding.


As a self-proclaimed "expert" on everything, you are so utterly incorrect on so many levels it is embarrassing, particularly when coupled to your rudeness to others on here.


"We don't have to prove anything at all." Only that you aren`t talking garbage?


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30/1/2012 at 6:10pm
 Location: Blackburn Lancashire
 Outfit: Coachman Laser 650 and Discovery
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Angus, you are being particularly offensive, and it isn't my job to educate you. As I said, check with the Caravan Club, then tell me I'm wrong.
Jim


30/1/2012 at 6:42pm
 Location: Llanidloes Powys
 Outfit: Skoda Yeti SEL4x4 +Bailey Ranger 460-4
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Jim,
instead of continually quoting the Caravan Club, why don't you get in touch with VOSA, who are the ultimate Authority on these matters, and get them to explain it?
And personally I think Angus's reply was very polite having seen some of yours!


30/1/2012 at 9:18pm
 Location: nr Derby
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31/1/2012 at 1:39pm
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You know, this thread isn`t really that important to me. I wou have gladly disappeared back into the ether if it wasn`t for Greendemon315s arrogance and rudeness.

Typical scenario of the school bully trying to browbeat people into his way of thinking by way of insult backed up with………….. well, nowt really.


I`m highly amused that he thinks I am objectionable :-
"Well Angus, I suggest that you review your thinking.The legal minimum is 4% with a minimum of 25Kg for lighter trailers.Here's the reference. Surprised you haven't heard of it."

Nope haven`t heard of it as it doesn`t exist.



"I have read it on many occasions. The maximum is not the figure set by the car manufacturer, it is the maximum legal figure, which is the MTPLM of the van. That is the legally recognised figure.Jim"

Well, readings not much good if you don`t understand….



"Angus, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to dedicate my weekend to proving what most of us know. Life's too short"

Know what exactly? That you`re talking bullcrap?



"The manufacturers' max tow has no legal standing, and cannot be used for noseweight purposes. The MTPLM is the legally recognised figure."

Oops, wrong again, this is becoming embarrassing.



"I'm sorry you find my approach draconian, but I hear so much absolute nonsense on this forum"

That’s because you are listening to yourself




"As regards MTPLM, of course it's related to noseweight. The CC do accept that 7% is more difficult to attain these days, so let's look at the legal minimum, which is 4%, in spite of what Angus says"

Getting boring now…



"We don't have to prove anything at all."

No, but it helps if you don`t want to appear stupid



"Angus, you are being particularly offensive, and it isn't my job to educate you."

Don`t be daft , try a goldfish.




"His theory is that the European Directive (which I do accept is not written very clearly)"

Not if you can pass the 11+ it isn`t.,




I`m afraid I`m not intimidated by arrogant, condescending remarks, I prefer to let PROVABLE FACTS do my talking.


Anyway, I can assure you all this will be my last post on the subject.






















Oh, just one more thing – I DID contact the Caravan Club, and it seems they, along with the rest of the planet (except 1) are totally wrong about the legislation as well:-

. Thank you for your e-mail.

There is no legal requirement for trailers. The only legal side is for the tow vehicle itself.

Regards

Kelly Henderson
Technical Advisor



For winter driving advice from the Highways Agency see here

Search for an Approved Workshop to find a nearby service and repair facility (now with customer satisfaction ratings)






From: ***** ***** [mailto:******.****** at ***.com]
Sent: 30 January 2012 09:59
To: Technical
Subject: Noseweight

Good Morning,

Could you please clarify the legal position on noseweight for me please?

I fully understand the `optimum` target of 7% of trailer weight, the requirement not to exceed the permissible hitch load etc, but is there a LEGAL reqirement to have a MINIMUM noseweight (percentage or weight) amount on a tow hitch when towing.

My reading of directive EC 95/48 is that the towing vehicle must have the capacity to carry a minimum of 4% of its plated towing limit on its tow hitch, but that this in no way imposes a minimum requirement on the hitch of the trailer being towed, and in no way relates to the MTPLM of any trailer.

Thanks in advance


***** *****

Membership No 0******x


JOB DONE


Post last edited on 31/01/2012 13:47:43



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