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Subject Topic: Car struggling to tow
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29/8/2012 at 9:17pm
 Location: Portsmouth
 Outfit: Pageant Bretagne and Seat Alhambra
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These replies are brilliant. We will try the easier ones to check first and go from there. Also good to hear confirmation that the car should do the job - hubby has been saying maybe we need a bigger car to pull the van but our Seat is quite economical to run at other times.


30/8/2012 at 10:50am
 Location: None Entered
 Outfit: Swift charisma Skoda Scout 4x4
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There is a little known problem with the wiring loom, under the air intake on the OS front side, under the air intake there is a wiring loom that can wear through and some of the wires short out and stop the car performing, just remove all the air ducting on that side and check under the large air intake bolted to the inner wing, if the outer coating of the loom is warn get the garage to repair the loom and move it down slightly


30/8/2012 at 9:53pm
 Location: Nth lincs
 Outfit: Lunar quasar 524 Skoda superb 1.9TDI.
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Quote: Originally posted by Gary H on 29/8/2012

Another turbo problem can be a sticking turbo charger waste gate. These are basicly a small butterfly valve on the exhaust side of the turbo. When the turbo reaches a pre-set boost level, this valve opens and lets some of the exhaust gas by-pass the turbo to prevent over boost issues / engine damage. However, what can happen with waste gates is that it can sieze in the partially open position, if this happens, the engine will never develop its peak opperating power as the turbo will not produce is maximum boost pressure. An acutator rod can be seen on the turbo which is conected to a diaphram chamber, it can be checked for 'free' movement fairly easily.

A seized waste gate problem will not show itself with electronic diagnostics!!





Variable vane turbos do not have a wastgate because they are variable and only supply the boost that is required,they work at very low pressure and have very minimal lag,
The actuator rod is what moves the vanes to increase boost as required.


31/8/2012 at 10:15pm
 Location: West Yorkshire
 Outfit: Compass Corona 556 & Saab 93 TID Est.
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I have had this problem a few years ago on a Land Rover Freelander TD4. After much Arrgo of maf sensors and injectors, new Turbo and pipes, it turned out to be a blocked cat in the exhaust system.

The cat looks like a honeycombe and it was totally solid so the engine couldn't breathe .

Andy


31/8/2012 at 10:48pm
 Location: None Entered
 Outfit: 2004 Lunar Lexon CS. 1.9 Passat tug
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Right then, if you want to save yourself some money on expensive diognostics, then have a read through this. Theres alot here you can check yourself and its highly relevant to all VNT turbos and the 1.9 PD VW engine in general.

Its also interesting to note that although a VNT turbo does not have a waste gate as such, it does have the same issues as a turbo fitted with one should a fault occur with the VNT actuator or its vacum pipe, with the same outcome= No power.

Heres the page copied here-

B5 VNT TURBO PROBLEMS

DIESEL TURBO CONTROL

VACUUM CONTROL.

When you start the engine The engines tandem pump produces the vacuum (sucks).

This vacuum (suction) is used to control four systems.

1. Brake servo

2. EGR valve N18

3. Intake manifold flap valve N239

4. MAP regulator valve N75

Vacuum passes through a one way valve to the brake servo to give assisted brakes.

Vacuum passes to the EGR valve The EGR valve controls the EGR actuator which moves a flap between the exhaust and intake manifolds and holds it open. The EGR valve can bleed vacuum to the air filter which lets it shut. An electrical impulse from the ECU also controls the bleed off and therefore the opening and closing.

Vacuum passes to the Intake manifold flap valve. Vacuum in the intake manifold flap valve regulator, acts on an actuator to pull the intake manifold flap shut for 3 seconds when the engine is switched off. Vacuum is then lost and the flap valve springs open again.

Vacuum passes to the Map regulator N75. This allows vacuum to pass to the turbo actuator and pulls the actuator to actuate the turbo. (In the old days, more vacuum meant more turbo, this is not the case with variable vane turbo’s.)

The Map regulator N75 can bleed vacuum to the air filter. The Map regulator is electronically operated by the Map sensor via the ECU. The Map sensor detects excess boost pressure in the intake. An excessive boost pressure signal causes the ECU to send a signal to the Map N75 valve which opens and bleeds vacuum to the air filter. This reduced vacuum reduces the pull on the turbo actuator and cuts turbo pressure.

The vacuum system contains THREE one way valves to help prevent failure of all four systems if a vacuum pipe leaks.

WHAT GOES WRONG.

Tandem pump failure. All vacuum lost, brake assist lost. Engine will run rough or may not start at all.

Vacuum lost to EGR valve. EGR valve will stay closed. Engine will start and run fine. EGR valves can become stuck open. Engine will run rough, produce excessive smoke. Valve can be cleaned and unstuck. As a temporary measure valve can be pushed shut, vacuum pipe disconnected and blocked.

Vacuum lost to Intake manifold flap valve. This may not show, or it will show as a shuddering engine on switch off.

Vacuum lost to MAP regulator valve N75. This will mean no vacuum to turbo actuator and so turbo will not work. Engine will start and run fine but have no power to accelerate or climb hills.

The vacuum system contains a sensor which measures air temperature and pressure. This is the MAP sensor. This sensor feeds signals to the engines ECU. Using these signals the ECU can determine three things.

  1. Manifold pressure within specification
  2. Manifold pressure too high
  3. Manifold pressure too low.

If the ECU receives a signal for too high manifold pressure the MAP N75 valve is opened and vacuum bleeds to the air filter. This loss of vacuum cuts vacuum to the turbo actuator and the turbo stops working. The engine will loose power suddenly and refuse to rev, climb hills etc. This is called LIMP mode. The ECU should now store a fault code but not necessarily show a fault light. Switching ignition off and on should reset the limp mode (not the code) and the engine should run normally. As soon as the manifold pressure goes too high, it will drop back into limp mode.

So the vacuum system is made much more complicated because of the signals sent to the ECU.

If the engine drops into limp mode you have to get a VCDS or Dealer code read. (Avoid cheap code readers as these often give daft results)
It is even better to get a VCDS scan of engine measuring block 011 whilst the engine is accelerated from about 1000 rpm to 4000 rpm and then using excel to plot a turbo spec and turbo actual graph against rpm. (How to do this is explained in another section)

Code 17964. Boost pressure too low.

Vacuum pipe damaged

Map N75 valve failed, bleeding vacuum to air filter

Turbo actuator failed, not pulling on turbo

Map sensor failed, reading too low.

Intercooler pipe split/joint leaking.

Code 17965. Boost pressure too high.

.

Vacuum pipes wrongly connected

Map N75 valve failed, cannot bleed vacuum to air filter

Map sensor failed, reading too high

Turbo vanes stuck in max position

In theory both codes can be caused by a faulty turbo (sticking vanes). In practice the vanes stick in the max pressure position so cause boost pressure too high, not too low. As a turbo fault is the most expensive option, it’s best to check everything else first.

What to do with Code 17964.

Start the car and feel round the big air pipes from the turbo to the intercooler and back to the inlet manifold. You should feel air blowing out of a split pipe or bad connector especially if the engine is speeded up.

Ask someone to start the car while you watch the turbo actuator.

It should move 15 – 20mm as vacuum acts on it and stay moved.

If it doesn’t move the actuator is faulty or you have no vacuum in the pipe leading to the actuator

Pull the pipe off the actuator, attach a spare bit of pipe and suck hard.

The actuator should move 10 – 15mm and stay moved as long as you suck.

If the actuator doesn’t move it is faulty.

If the actuator moves and stays moved the fault is in the vacuum pipes or MAP valve (N75).

Testing the vacuum pipes.

Pull the turbo actuator pipe off the actuator and blow into the pipe.(You can use a bicycle or football pump to apply pressure but DO NOT pump it up.)

It should not be possible to blow/pump into the pipe.

If you can blow into the pipe there is a vacuum leak further down the system.

If you cannot blow the vacuum pipes are ok.

(You must be very sure of this as a slight leak will cause intermittent turbo loss.)

It is often easier to replace all the vacuum pipes one at a time than it is to find a leak.

If you have replaced all of the vacuum pipes and can still blow into the actuator pipe you probably have a faulty MAP valve (N75).

If the N75 valve is jammed open, too much vacuum will be lost to the air filter and stop the turbo actuator working.

.

To be sure, try blowing directly into the N75 valve using a spare piece of hose whilst blocking the IN pipe to the valve. (A pump helps but don’t pump it up.)

Any leak means the valve is probably faulty.

Another simple test is, engine running, pull the vacuum pipe off the N75 valve that leads to the turbo actuator. The actuator should immediately drop back.

Replace the pipe, watch the actuator pull across and then pull the pipe off that runs into the N75 valve the turbo actuator should drop back again.

If any of these tests suggest that the N75 valve is leaking you need to replace it.
The MAP (N75) valves are quite robust and don't often fail.

No vacuum leaks found at all. This suggests the MAP sensor is faulty. The simplest way to check this is to replace it.

If the MAP sensor is ok and the vacuum system is air tight and the turbo actuator is moving and staying moved then the fault is probably the turbo.

It is possible for the whole system to be working ok and the turbo actuator works BUT it is not pulling the turbo vanes open. This means that the turbo runs fine but generates less pressure than it should. (This is however unlikely because the vanes usually jam open.)

TRY

Clean the turbo with turbo cleaner (This rarely works, long term)

Strip the turbo and clean properly

Replace the turbo with new or reconditioned unit

What to do with Code 17965

Ask someone to start car while you watch the turbo actuator.

It will move 15 – 20mm and stay moved.

It must do this for you to register “pressure too high”

If it doesn’t move or stay moved the system is lying to you and the MAP sensor is probably faulty so replace that first.

It is just about possible to have over boost and a vacuum leak but this is very unlikely so you should be able to ignore the vacuum pipes.
With the engine and ignition off the N75 vacuum valve is SHUT. This means that no vacuum will go to the turbo actuator. So if you pull the turbo actuator pipe off and blow into it (or suck on it), nothing will happen because you are connected directly to the pipe going to the air filter, which is open to "air".
As soon as the engine is started you should feel "suction" if you put a finger over the end of the pipe that goes to the turbo actuator.
Always make sure the bleed pipe to the air filter is clear by pulling it off the N75 valve and blowing into it. It must NOT be blocked.

A failed N75 valve should not cause over boost. It is only open to vacuum and pulling on the turbo actuator when it is energised by the signal from the ECU.
If the valve fails or the ECU signal fails it will stop vacuum to the turbo actuator and "bleed vacuum" to the air filter. This stops boost and is a fail safe.
If it should stick in the open "vacuum" position it will cause overboost. (I have never heard of this happening).
N75 valves are reliable and don't often fail.

If the MAP sensor and the N75 valve are not faulty or have been replaced then the fault is probably the turbo.

The turbo vanes have been pulled open by the actuator and are sticking open causing over boost.

This isn’t caused by a faulty actuator. It is usually caused by the actuator linkage being jammed.

TRY

Clean the turbo with turbo cleaner. (This rarely works long term)

Strip the turbo and clean properly

Replace the turbo with new or reconditioned unit

A faulty MAF (AMM) should not give either under boost or over boost codes.
If an engine goes into limp but recovers when you switch off and on. It cannot be a MAF fault.

A faulty EGR valve should not give either under boost or over boost codes BUT

A vacuum leak in any vacuum pipe can cause problems especially if a one way valve is not working.

To ensure that the EGR valve is not adding to your problems:

Disconnect the big air pipe so that you can press the internal valve shut.

Pull the vacuum pipe off the EGR valve and plug the vacuum pipe (not the pipe on the EGR) with a bolt or similar. (It must be air tight). The EGR valve will now stay shut. The engine will run fine like this but it might flag a fault code.

 



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01/9/2012 at 9:34pm
 Location: Portsmouth
 Outfit: Pageant Bretagne and Seat Alhambra
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Thanks for that advice.

It sounds just like you have described the limp mode - when we set off the car seems to run fine for a while - coming home today it pulled the van for half hour round the M25 fine but then seemed to suddenly lose the power for the rest of the journey. Weren't able to do much this week as away but will try some of your suggestion now we're back with time to look into the problem.



10/9/2012 at 3:35pm
 Location: Fife Scotland
 Outfit: Swift Jura (Charisma)
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Reading the thread with much interest as I have just experienced a similar problem with my Mitsubishi L200 (2.5Di-D 136BHP) towing my Swift Jura (laden about 1350kg). On main 'A' roads I used to shoot up in 5th, I've just had to drop to 3rd and thought my engine would burn out getting to the top of the hills! The car is a 2007, I am the only owner, full service history and no noticeable issues when day to day driving (non-towing). I love my car but the trauma of the last caravan trip has got me looking at alternatives! Has anyone had a similar problem of have some funky advice for the L200 on this one?


13/8/2018 at 8:09am
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hi
i have the same problem and waiting for my mechanic to get back from holiday. i have a jeep patriot 2.4l petrol but also a LPG conversion kit. Going up hills is a nightmare. Tried on Gas and petrol still no joy, definitely a car issue.


14/8/2018 at 4:54pm
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I have just recently had the same problem with my Ford Focus 1.6tdci with 39,000 genuine miles on the clock. Solo it would be ok driving up to 50-60mph depending on the road, hills etc.
Every time I went over this speed it went into limp mode and max speed was 30-40mph at best. It came up on screen with error Engine malfunction.
It happened when I was was over a hundred miles from home, so I called Greenflag who I have my breakdown cover with.
The mechanic (local garage) was out within 30 minutes and plugged in his error code reader which showed Turbo acuator fault. He said he would try and do a tweek to get me home and I would be ok if I stayed at the 50-60mph and as this would stop the error code showing and the car going into limp mode. This seemed to work and I got home ok.
I got the acuator replaced the day after I got home.

Most of my driving is local so 30-40 mph is my average speed.I also take it for a long drive every couple of weeks to recharge the DPF.
The following week we hooked up the van for a 3 night break. All was fine at 30mph until I hit the main road and the first slight incline the car showed Engine management fault again and went into limp mode. So we crawled back home with irate motorists passing me and not too happy. There was no layby where I could pull in.

Long story short it was discovered that the Greenflag guy had tampered with the Turbo which should not have been done. There was a nut/bolt missing which showed someone had been tampering with the turbo.
I have the first 3 years Ford dealer service history and my son in laws garage after that.
It meant the turbo would have needed recalibrated to guarantee it was ok. Which meant a rolling road job.
I did not want to mess about so decided just to fit a new turbo and all the pipes,oil changes etc that go with it.

If the Greenflag guy had not tampered with the turbo, the original diagnosis of the turbo acuator would have been all that was needed. My son in law took it to a friend in the trade who is a diesel specialist who spotted the missing nut/bolt on the turbo.
Oh! and Greenflag were not interested!I am now with the RAC.

Sorry for the long post but it could possibly just be the turbo acuator.



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It is a fool who has to say something.


15/8/2018 at 9:54am
 Location: Shropshire
 Outfit: Bailey Phoenix GT 75
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Our first Sorento occasionally lacked power,it turned out to be sticking turbo actuator,replaced under warranty.
We had a Frontera which usd to go into safe mode at inopportune moments!Switching off and on cleared it.
Vauxhall could not fix it despite changing a couple of sensors.Fortunately in warranty.
Sold it, wll not entertain another Vauxhall

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17/8/2018 at 10:32pm
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friend at work had similar issue ...poor performance, heavy fuel consumption ---- turned out to be a loose fuel injector !!!!



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