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 Topic: Unstable unit - help please!
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17/8/2013 at 8:07pm
Location: Bradford West Yorkshire
Outfit: Ssangyong Korando & Sprite Major 6TD
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Firstly apologies for the long posting, but wanted to make sure I had included all the details!
Here’s the problem, we share a caravan with my parents in law, which we changed at the start of the year. The previous van was a 2009 Sprite Major 6, which neither of us had any issues towing despite the van being over 85% of the kerb weight. (Should note that father-in-law is an HGV driver so has plenty of experience of driving/towing all sorts of vehicles).
The new van (2013 Sprite Major 6 TD) is very similar weight, and towed behind our Kia Sportage feels better than the old van; father in law however is struggling with the new van swaying all over the place…
When the van left today it weighed 1440kg (therefore 40kg underweight) – checked on a Reich Caravan Weight Controller. The nose weight was 78kg – checked on a Milenco precision noseweight gauge.
Tyre pressures were exactly right on the van, checked on a brand new digital tyre pressure gauge. Front and back of the van is loaded with duvets, bedding etc. All food and equipment is central in the van.
There’s no excessive temperature in the van tyres, or wheels to indicate any issues with the brakes.
The only thing I can think of is the match percentage – but why would it be any worse on this van than the last which he towed with ease (it was even re-plated to 1500kg and he towed it full!). I’ve attached the match reports from the Caravan Club website for both his and our cars… as I say the only potential issue is the % match – but don’t know what the difference is between old and new vans.
Any help/suggestions very gratefully received!
Match report - Mondeo (Unstable)
The Club advises that a Ford Mondeo Zetec 2.0TDCi 140 PS (2007) can, with warnings, tow a Sprite Major 6 TD (2013)
• 2 Kerbweight ratio: 95%
• The caravan's laden weight is close to the car's kerb weight, increasing the risk of stability concerns. This outfit should not be driven by novice towers, and does not meet Club guidelines. Note that a small increase in ratio (to perhaps 90%) is acceptable if all other criteria are passed.
• 1 Towing limit ratio: 82%
• The caravan's laden weight is within the car's stated towing limit, and therefore meets legal limitations.
• 1 Gross train weight ratio: 92%
• The sum of the car and caravan’s fully laden weights is within the car’s gross train weight. This outfit can therefore be used legally with both the car and the caravan fully laden.
• 1 Nose weight ratio: 125%
• The car's nose weight should be fine to safely tow this caravan. If this figure is high, however, (typically over 100%) care will be needed to load the caravan so that the car’s nose weight limit is not exceeded, but this should be practically achievable. Aim for 5-7% of the caravan’s actual laden weight without overloading the car.
• 1 BHP per ton : 43
• The car’s engine power should be fine to safely tow this caravan.
B+E Licence required
The maximum combined weight of this car and caravan car gross vehicle weight + caravan MTPLM) are over 3500kg, which means you need to have a category B+E driving licence. If you obtained your standard car driving licence before 1st January 1997, you already have this – if not you will need to take a B+E test to legally drive this outfit.
Ford Mondeo Zetec 2.0TDCi 140 PS (2007)
Make Ford
Range Zetec 2.0TDCi 140 PS
Model Mondeo
Year 2007
Fuel type Diesel
Transmission type Manual
Body type Hatchback
Kerb weight 1559.00kg
Towing limit 1800.00kg
Gross vehicle weight 2170.00kg
Gross train weight 3970.00kg
Nose weight 80.00kg
BHP 140
RPM for maximum BHP 4000.00
Maximum torque 340.00
RPM for maximum torque 1750.00
More info
Overall height 1500.00mm
Overall width 1886.00mm
Overall length 4778.00mm
Engine size 2.00
Driven wheels Front
Number of doors 5
Number of speeds 6
Self levelling suspension No
Stability control Standard
Trailer stability prog. Unknown
Transmission description Manual
CO2 156
Emission standards met E4
Trailer braked % incl. 12.00
Trailer unbraked % incl. 12.00
Sprite Major 6 TD (2013)
Make Sprite
Range Major
Model 6 TD
Year 2013
Type Caravan
Berths 6
Number of axles 1
MTPLM 1480kg
MIRO 1274kg
User payload 206kg
Hitch limit Unknown
Shipping length 7.48m
Overall width 2.23m
Overall height 2.65m
Match report (Sportage - No stability Issues)
The Club advises that a KIA Sportage 2.0 CRDI TITAN 4WD (2008) can, with warnings, tow a Sprite Major 6 TD (2013)
• 1 Kerbweight ratio: 80%
• The caravan's laden weight is within 85% of the car's kerb weight, and therefore meets Club guidelines.
• 1 Towing limit ratio: 82%
• The caravan's laden weight is within the car's stated towing limit, and therefore meets legal limitations.
• 1 Gross train weight ratio: 92%
• The sum of the car and caravan’s fully laden weights is within the car’s gross train weight. This outfit can therefore be used legally with both the car and the caravan fully laden.
• 1 Nose weight ratio: 133%
• The car's nose weight should be fine to safely tow this caravan. If this figure is high, however, (typically over 100%) care will be needed to load the caravan so that the car’s nose weight limit is not exceeded, but this should be practically achievable. Aim for 5-7% of the caravan’s actual laden weight without overloading the car.
• 2 BHP per ton : 39
• The car's engine power is quite low to tow this caravan. It may be sluggish and uncomfortable on hills or at junctions.
B+E Licence required
The maximum combined weight of this car and caravan car gross vehicle weight + caravan MTPLM) are over 3500kg, which means you need to have a category B+E driving licence. If you obtained your standard car driving licence before 1st January 1997, you already have this – if not you will need to take a B+E test to legally drive this outfit.
KIA Sportage 2.0 CRDI TITAN 4WD (2008)
Make KIA
Range 2.0 CRDI TITAN 4WD
Model Sportage
Year 2008
Fuel type Diesel
Transmission type Manual
Body type Sports utility vehicle
Kerb weight 1842.00kg
Towing limit 1800.00kg
Gross vehicle weight 2260.00kg
Gross train weight 4060.00kg
Nose weight 75.00kg
BHP 138
RPM for maximum BHP 4000.00
Maximum torque 305.00
RPM for maximum torque 1800.00
More info
Overall height 1730.00mm
Overall width 1840.00mm
Overall length 4350.00mm
Engine size 2.00
Driven wheels 4x4
Number of doors 5
Number of speeds 6
Self levelling suspension No
Stability control Standard
Trailer stability prog. -
Transmission description Manual
CO2 187
Emission standards met E4
Trailer braked % incl. Unknown
Trailer unbraked % incl. Unknown
Sprite Major 6 TD (2013)
Make Sprite
Range Major
Model 6 TD
Year 2013
Type Caravan
Berths 6
Number of axles 1
MTPLM 1480kg
MIRO 1274kg
User payload 206kg
Hitch limit Unknown
Shipping length 7.48m
Overall width 2.23m
Overall height 2.65m
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17/8/2013 at 8:56pm
Location: Royal Forest of Dean
Outfit: Motorhome
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Are the car tyre pressures correct? What about suspension problems on the Mondeo? Don't they suffer from worn bush problems which may show when loaded but not in normal use?
Rob
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17/8/2013 at 9:47pm
Location: Bradford West Yorkshire
Outfit: Ssangyong Korando & Sprite Major 6TD
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Tyre pressures on the mondeo have been pumped up to 'Fully Loaded' pressures - caravan spare, trolley jack, awning, table etc are in the boot, although back seat was empty.
It did seem to be 'sat down' a bit at the back, so possibly a suspension issue, but car has been recently serviced a Ford dealer so would have expected that they would have reported anything that was worn suspension wise. The car has only done 44000 miles from new so wouldn't have expected suspension to be too worn, although will suggest that he gets it checked out.
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17/8/2013 at 9:53pm
Location: Teesside
Outfit: Mitsubishi ASX4
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You are sharing the van with your in laws. Therefore I assume you each load it with your own stuff.
Given that both cars towed fine with the other caravan, I would guess the problem is the way FIL loads the new caravan.
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17/8/2013 at 10:08pm
Location: Midlands
Outfit: Mondeo Avondale Gram
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A service wont really pickup weak springs and shocks.
Unstable all the time? What happens exactly?
Pop the van along to a weighbridge and see how accurate the gauges you have are.
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17/8/2013 at 10:35pm
Location: Kennington OXFORD
Outfit: 2005 Eccles Sterling Topaz 2 berth
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Quote: Originally posted by Paul B on 17/8/2013
caravan spare, trolley jack, awning, table etc are in the boot, although back seat was empty. It did seem to be 'sat down' a bit at the back
There may be a clue there. If the back seat is empty, why not drop the seats, and put all those items as far forward as possible, rather than have them at the rear and thereby aft of the axle? This may be upsetting the stability of the car. This IMHO would affect the stability of the whole outfit.
Pete
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17/8/2013 at 10:42pm
Location: Bradford West Yorkshire
Outfit: Ssangyong Korando & Sprite Major 6TD
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Thanks for all the suggestions - other thing I've just thought of is that he fitted new rear tyres recently.
I wonder whether the load rating on them is correct (I'll get him to check in the morning) - whether it's relevant or not I don't know, but he fitted 'budget' tyres as they only do around 4000 miles a year in the car. Whether the side walls aren't as strong as a branded tyre...
Plenty to think about.
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18/8/2013 at 12:22am
Location: Rochdale
Outfit: Hymer Nova 470 Mondeo titanium 140tdc
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Quote: Originally posted by Rob and Tina on 17/8/2013
Are the car tyre pressures correct? What about suspension problems on the Mondeo? Don't they suffer from worn bush problems which may show when loaded but not in normal use?
Rob
The bush problem was on the mk3 the mk4 is fitted differently so I am assured by a ford technician last Thursday.
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Bill
For a licence dated 1997 or later you must add together the plated max weight of the caravan and trailer, if the total is 3500 or less you can tow it. You may even tow a caravan with a MAM greater than the cars unladen mass the restriction was removed in 2013
Mondeo Titanium 140 tdci
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18/8/2013 at 4:59pm
Location: Teesside
Outfit: Mitsubishi ASX4
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Quote: Originally posted by Petemate on 17/8/2013
Quote: Originally posted by Paul B on 17/8/2013caravan spare, trolley jack, awning, table etc are in the boot, although back seat was empty. It did seem to be 'sat down' a bit at the back
There may be a clue there. If the back seat is empty, why not drop the seats, and put all those items as far forward as possible, rather than have them at the rear and thereby aft of the axle? This may be upsetting the stability of the car. This IMHO would affect the stability of the whole outfit.
Pete
Hmmm. Unstable unit and trolley jack behind too. Just imagine the worst and the car turns over, and the trolley jack is coming towards you, still at 60mph. Doesn't bear thinking about.
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18/8/2013 at 6:06pm
Location: Bradford West Yorkshire
Outfit: Ssangyong Korando & Sprite Major 6TD
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Still pondering this one - the load rating on the tyres is the same all round, so at least that's one thing ruled out.
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19/8/2013 at 9:57am
Location: None Entered
Outfit: Coachman Pastiche
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I had new tyres on the back of my Mondeo recently and had the tracking adjusted. The car became a real hand full at 60 mph. Had the tracking put back where it was and it's much better. Next thing I will do is swap the wheels back to front. It just shows that maintainance isn't always going to improve things.
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19/8/2013 at 11:21am
Location: Teesside
Outfit: Mitsubishi ASX4
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Quote: Originally posted by Paul B on 18/8/2013
Still pondering this one - the load rating on the tyres is the same all round, so at least that's one thing ruled out.
If the van is the same weight, it is very unlikely to be anything on your FILs car. The only thing that has changed is the van and the way your FIL loads it compared to the way you have loaded it. Loading also has a great effect on stability. Check the obvious first!
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20/8/2013 at 9:07am
Location: flint north wales
Outfit: swift challenger 480se 2002
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personally i would think that the problem lies with the budget tyres ,no matter what the numbers state the cheap (east european/chinese) tyres do not handle the same as proper ones ,as a ex taxi driver for a company i had no choice in the tyres fitted to the vehicle but i do know how it handled with them on and how quickly the cheap ones wore out .your also 100% correct in your assumption about the sidewall flex
my advise to your f.i.l would be to go to a tyre fitters and find a pair of part worn branded tyres i.e pirelli or goodyear etc ,and also explain to who evers in charge that the car will be used for towing .and put this down to experience .
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24/8/2013 at 5:55pm
Location: None Entered
Outfit: 2004 Lunar Lexon CS. 1.9 Passat tug
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Maybe its just the van!! Ive heard sometimes that one particular van will be a pain with one car but not with another although they maybe similar weights etc.
My old van was always loaded as it should have been and everything was 100% spot on like you have said in your O.P above but it would never tow as well as my newer van even though the newer one is heavier, wider and longer than the old one.
I can never fathom why since logic says the smaller van would tow better but it didn't. Im at 86% now, (was 77%) I also use M.A.D assistor springs on my car and Its very stable.
Just noticed the shipping length of your Sprite is very similar to.
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28/8/2013 at 9:33pm
Location: Wigan Pier. Lancashire
Outfit: Trackie bottoms and a T shirt.
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Quote: Originally posted by Paul B on 17/8/2013Thanks for all the suggestions - other thing I've just thought of is that he fitted new rear tyres recently.
I wonder whether the load rating on them is correct (I'll get him to check in the morning) - whether it's relevant or not I don't know, but he fitted 'budget' tyres as they only do around 4000 miles a year in the car. Whether the side walls aren't as strong as a branded tyre...
Plenty to think about.
A mate mentioned this exact same problem to me at the weekend. He fitted 'el cheepo' tyres to the back of his Merc estate and it was fine until he hitched up his 'van. He had inherited a new stability issue. Changing the rear tyres on the car for quality items solved the problem. I'd check on the tyres on the car....
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29/8/2013 at 12:39pm
Location: None Entered
Outfit: 2004 Lunar Lexon CS. 1.9 Passat tug
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Quote: Originally posted by rich2818 on 28/8/2013
Quote: Originally posted by Paul B on 17/8/2013Thanks for all the suggestions - other thing I've just thought of is that he fitted new rear tyres recently.
I wonder whether the load rating on them is correct (I'll get him to check in the morning) - whether it's relevant or not I don't know, but he fitted 'budget' tyres as they only do around 4000 miles a year in the car. Whether the side walls aren't as strong as a branded tyre...
Plenty to think about.
A mate mentioned this exact same problem to me at the weekend. He fitted 'el cheepo' tyres to the back of his Merc estate and it was fine until he hitched up his 'van. He had inherited a new stability issue. Changing the rear tyres on the car for quality items solved the problem. I'd check on the tyres on the car....
The O.P could also check the ply rating of the tyres, I use an 8 ply tyre, more plys = a stiffer side wall which equals less side wall flex.
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