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Subject Topic: Towing and Dual mass fly wheels
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14/10/2013 at 4:15pm
 Location: Gloucestershire
 Outfit: Renault Trafic van
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We have had our mix of luck with cars - we had a great Mazda 323 (no DMFW) for 10 years that pulled our caravan no problem, and then we have had terrible luck with our Zafira (with a DMFW).

Not wanting to get into a debate on how rubbish or not they are, I would be interested to hear your views on whether you think towing wears out Dual mass fly wheels - even if as a percentage the car is well within the 85% towing limit, and that the overall mileage towed per year is on average 2,000 miles.

We got our DMFW and clutch replaced in January, and 12,000 miles later (2k of towing) we have just been told it sounds like it is going again! So I wonder if towing is a large contributing factor or (as I suspect) did we just get a Friday afternoon built car?

Needless to say we are looking for a new tow car with 7 seats under £10k that can also double as our main day to day commute to work car. We are off Vauxhalls for the foreseeable future:-(

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Took a break like everyone over covid, flogged the caravan and got a campervan!


14/10/2013 at 4:46pm
 Location: Kennington OXFORD
 Outfit: 2005 Eccles Sterling Topaz 2 berth
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The main reason I went to auto from manual when I changed my Saab for another Saab, was the problem with my severely arthritic left ankle, which was making walking almost impossible after at least 10 minutes in the driving seat. However, I am very relieved that I will have no DMFW problems now, and I am happy to put up with slightly worse mpg. Having said all that, the outgoing Saab had 107k miles, on the original clutch and flywheel, and with many towing miles, and was operating perfectly, so maybe I was lucky. Also, the two caravans I towed with it were fairly light (max 1000kg and 1100kg).
Pete


14/10/2013 at 5:09pm
 Location: Suffolk
 Outfit: Coachman Pastiche 525 4
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I cannot vouch for this information, but I was told to always keep the revs in a diesel car around 2-2500 rpm and not labour the engine as under revving kills a DMF.

I try not to let the revs drop even drop down a gear to keep the revs high. I wonder sometimes people may use a too high gear for the sake of economy.



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A Fart is only Natures Ringtone

Finish what you sta


14/10/2013 at 5:25pm
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Driving style when towing, ie as above don't labour engine uphill & gentle acceleration through gears all help but just the big rise in fuel consumption when towing will tell you how much extra work the car is doing.

However, it should not fail after 12k miles & one wonders if clutch was not replaced at a main dealer workshop were cheap & substandard parts used to keep down costs? If the clutch was fitted at main dealer workshop then you have a possible warranty claim as I think repairs are guaranteed. I doubt they will promise anything without stripping it down though & then it should become clear if failure is down to faulty parts or not.

Post last edited on 14/10/2013 19:52:39

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Regards, Jack+Jon.


14/10/2013 at 5:44pm
 Location: Wigan Pier. Lancashire
 Outfit: Trackie bottoms and a T shirt.
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People will tell you all sorts of horror stories but the truth is you only ever hear about the minority who have suffered problems not the majority who have been fine.

My Mondeo Tdci had done 152k when it had a new clutch and DMF towing 1400kgs all over Europe for much of that. Even then it wasn't the DMF that failed. It was the concentric slave cylinder/release bearing that got got noisy. The DMF could have stayed in. It was perfectly OK but while its out you change everything. Now on 190k, car looks and drives like 50k.

Don't let them labour in a high gear....... that's the biggest cause of avoidable failure.


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14/10/2013 at 5:53pm
 Location: Gloucestershire
 Outfit: Renault Trafic van
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Thanks Pete. Good point. We may consider an auto next !
The Vicar - yes, advice given by our local mechanic - we have been practicing keeping the revs up for quite a while now, and I have always let the unit gain momentum naturally rather than welly it! So driving style contributes to failure/wear. I definitely feel that reversing puts a lot of strain on the clutch....get the odd whiff!

Jack and Jon - good point on the fuel consumption - never thought of it like that.
Re warrantee - they were replaced at a main dealer that gives 3 months warrantee on the work or 3k miles. We are trying to find out if the parts had more warrantee but you are right, they will need to strip it before saying what the reason is.
Feezee

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Took a break like everyone over covid, flogged the caravan and got a campervan!


14/10/2013 at 7:25pm
 Location: Lichfield
 Outfit: Coachman Amara 450
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Back in 2004 we had a brand new Vauxhall Zafira 1.8 petrol which in less than 12 months and about 5,000 on the clock had to have a new clutch fitted under the vehicle warranty. We did tow a caravan about half a dozen times a year which had a laden weight of only 1000 kgs. but generally Vauxhalls don't have a good reputation especially for towing. If you do any research on vehicle BHP and torque delivery they are not in the same league as other vehicles of the same engine size etc. and for that reason not that many caravanners use them. The people that do generally tow with them usually don't give a fig about the match or noseweight anyway and will hitch up regardlessly but once you have had a bad experience with a Vauxhall it puts you off for good. Have a look to see how many you see towing with a Ford Mondeo in a like for like comparison to a Vauxhall Vectra and you will find that the Mondeo is far more popular in more ways than one. Don't let the Vauxhall persuade you to opt for an auto just of a bad experience as I have had 2 Ford Focuses with a manual gearbox and now a Volvo V50 also a manual and have had no problems regarding the clutch or DMF.


14/10/2013 at 7:35pm
 Location: Rochdale
 Outfit: Hymer Nova 470 Mondeo titanium 140tdc
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Quote: Originally posted by The Vicar on 14/10/2013

I cannot vouch for this information, but I was told to always keep the revs in a diesel car around 2-2500 rpm and not labour the engine as under revving kills a DMF.

I try not to let the revs drop even drop down a gear to keep the revs high. I wonder sometimes people may use a too high gear for the sake of economy.





So I can forget about 5th and 6th gear then if I want to stay driving at a legal speed, and also forget about 4th unless I am on a Dual carriageway. My car has a little arrow that lights up when a higher gear is selecte, this occurs at about 1500 rpm when the car reaches maximum torque.


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Bill

For a licence dated 1997 or later you must add together the plated max weight of the caravan and trailer, if the total is 3500 or less you can tow it. You may even tow a caravan with a MAM greater than the cars unladen mass the restriction was removed in 2013

Mondeo Titanium 140 tdci


14/10/2013 at 8:01pm
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Quote: Originally posted by janus on 14/10/2013
So I can forget about 5th and 6th gear then if I want to stay driving at a legal speed, and also forget about 4th unless I am on a Dual carriageway? My car has a little arrow that lights up when a higher gear is selecte, this occurs at about 1500 rpm when the car reaches maximum torque.


To explain...Engines peak at different revs but with a dmf its less obvious when the engine begins to labour. It won't do so at normal motorway cruise speed in any gear but could do if you slow down on a motorway incline for example, then you need to drop a gear.

The purpose of the dmf is to smooth out the vibration through the drive train particularly with a diesel & makes modern diesels a much nicer drive because of it. Explained simply, a dmf is a 2part flywheel with a shock absorber between the 2 so might fail eventually, which a solid flywheel won't.

-------------
Regards, Jack+Jon.


14/10/2013 at 8:08pm
 Location: Midlands
 Outfit: Mondeo Avondale Gram
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Low revs and high load kill DMF's. But so will red line standing starts.

A DMF is just another one of life's improvements that you have ti live with unless going for an auto.

They are not as expensive as they used to be, But probably add £200 to the bill.



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14/10/2013 at 8:20pm
 Location: None Entered
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Only adding my two pennies worth here...
The octavia vrs I owned previously was an ex police car until 40k, then owned by me to 150k. At 110k the gearbox blew. I only replaced the DMF as whilst it was apart, I opted for a solid flywheel conversion with a stronger clutch (the car was re-mapped). I had already renewed the clutch and cover at approximately 60k. As far as im aware, the flywheel was fine, and atleast 4k mile were towing a lightish van of 1100kg from approximately 115k onwards. I had enough confidence in the clutch at least that I wouldnt think twice in giving it grief from a standstill, say when misjudging the gap on a junction/car at warp 9 comeing down the road towards me!
I now drive a Passat CR140 estate which is a company car (hence not owning the octavia any more :-( Im towing 1330kgs behind this and all seems fine. It has only done just 30k so I wouldnt expect any issues, however, to mirror previous comments, if I pull away with lower than usual revs, you will feel the flywheel 'wobble' a little. It will do this with or without the caravan on the back, but is obviously more pronounced with the van on the back, presumably due to the extra load or the extra power being requested to move. A few of my collegues have mentioned this, and we treat it as normal - indeed we have cars with well in excess of 100k on them without any major issues.
In short, There are indeed lots of horror stories about DMF's, but I have quite alot of faith in them.
Dont get me wrong, i hope that when the passat gets changed, I would like an auto operation (either a true torque converting auto or a DSG type affair) but this is purely due to my dislike of 'rowing' through gears 1 and 2 during traffic!
Most cars nowadays will have DMF's, so if you find a vehicle that you like, and are concerned as to its longevity, would it be worth investing in an extended warranty? I dont know of the cost, but there are companies that will cover ALL mechanical and electrical parts. This may atleast give some good piece of mind?
Cheers
Rob


14/10/2013 at 11:42pm
 Location: Rochdale
 Outfit: Hymer Nova 470 Mondeo titanium 140tdc
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Quote: Originally posted by Jack+Jon on 14/10/2013
Quote: Originally posted by janus on 14/10/2013So I can forget about 5th and 6th gear then if I want to stay driving at a legal speed, and also forget about 4th unless I am on a Dual carriageway? My car has a little arrow that lights up when a higher gear is selecte, this occurs at about 1500 rpm when the car reaches maximum torque.


To explain...Engines peak at different revs but with a dmf its less obvious when the engine begins to labour. It won't do so at normal motorway cruise speed in any gear but could do if you slow down on a motorway incline for example, then you need to drop a gear.

The purpose of the dmf is to smooth out the vibration through the drive train particularly with a diesel & makes modern diesels a much nicer drive because of it. Explained simply, a dmf is a 2part flywheel with a shock absorber between the 2 so might fail eventually, which a solid flywheel won't.


I am well aware of all that, my comment was a bit tongue in cheek at the idea of using a rev range of 2000 to 2500rpm on my car.


-------------
Bill

For a licence dated 1997 or later you must add together the plated max weight of the caravan and trailer, if the total is 3500 or less you can tow it. You may even tow a caravan with a MAM greater than the cars unladen mass the restriction was removed in 2013

Mondeo Titanium 140 tdci


15/10/2013 at 4:59pm
 Location: Rochdale
 Outfit: Hymer Nova 470 Mondeo titanium 140tdc
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I have yet another problem with the suggestion that cars with dmf should drive between 2000 and 2500 rpm, this would mean tgat within a 30 limit I would always be in 1st or 2nd gear, as 2000rpm in 3rd is 35mph.


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Bill

For a licence dated 1997 or later you must add together the plated max weight of the caravan and trailer, if the total is 3500 or less you can tow it. You may even tow a caravan with a MAM greater than the cars unladen mass the restriction was removed in 2013

Mondeo Titanium 140 tdci


15/10/2013 at 6:19pm
 Location: Midlands
 Outfit: Mondeo Avondale Gram
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Nothing wrong with using a lower gear if it reduces stress on the engine and flywheel.

Its bad practice to let an engine labour.

2500rpm would be for lower powered smaller engined units.

Most cars will be around 1800rpm - 2000rpm.



15/10/2013 at 11:48pm
 Location: Rochdale
 Outfit: Hymer Nova 470 Mondeo titanium 140tdc
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That is still too high for many many modern diesels.

-------------
Bill

For a licence dated 1997 or later you must add together the plated max weight of the caravan and trailer, if the total is 3500 or less you can tow it. You may even tow a caravan with a MAM greater than the cars unladen mass the restriction was removed in 2013

Mondeo Titanium 140 tdci


16/10/2013 at 1:05am
 Location: Rushden Northants
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The problem with Dual Mass Flywheels is that the early ones were purely springs between the two sections of the flywheel, and over time the springs broke, not necessarily through running at low rpm, just metal fatigue.

That their design has improved is no doubt down to the relatively high failure rate and warranty cost that some manufacturers have had, but they are only a palliative for the initial problem, that of vibration in the engine and drive train.

The number of solid flywheel kits available suggests that they still haven't got it right!

They seem to work best on relatively large engines that are not revving too high, but possibly my information is not completely up to date on that. Logic says that the more power pulses per second, the smoother the power and less work done by the DMF, but I get the feeling that smaller engines perhaps spend more of their time in the critical speed bands and thus fail earlier.
Peter



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