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 Topic: Towing legally
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15/8/2014 at 11:21am
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Hi everyone, this is a fairly long posting so I hope you'll bear with me.
I'm struggling to get a definitive answer to my problem, which is why I'm turning to this forum for advice on towing legality, hopefully other caravan owners have met the same problem, and found a resolution.
I've returned to caravanning after a break of 20 years and have purchased a Bailey Orion 440-4 van, due to be collected next week. The Bailey will tow at 84% of the kerbweight of my car, a Hyundai ix35 1.7CDi manual, bought new last year, this is all looking good so far.
The maximum towing weight of the car is 1200kg, the Orion MRO is 1102kg, and the MTPLM is 1249kg, when fully loaded, which on paper, is 49kg overweight for the car. Looking at various websites, I'm getting conflicting advice as to the legality of this car/caravan combination, some sites say that the MRO weight can be added to, as long as the car towing weight isn't exceeded, then I found this quotation from another site:
Law. "If your vehicle has a maximum braked trailer weight of 1500 kgs, the Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass (MTPLM) of your caravan must not exceed this figure. It is irrelevant that the caravan may not be loaded to its maximum; this is the figure that is legally permissible".
"If it is exceeded by 1Kg the outfit will be illegal and insurance will be invalid."
This seems to mean, that even if the caravan is being towed empty, returned to storage facility etc. and an incident occurs that may lead to an insurance claim, then I could be open to insurance invalidation or even prosecution.
Has anyone any experience of this, and would a certificate obtained from a weighbridge, of the caravan MRO plus any extras added, (but below the car towing weight), stand as proof of legality?. Also, are any caravanning society's trying to get the law amended to appreciate that a caravans' MRO to MTPLM is a variable weight, so is impossible to use as a fixed point of weight measurement. Any advice or thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.
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15/8/2014 at 1:02pm
Location: Rushden Northants
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Read this:
http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/towing/matching-car-and-caravan/
Peter
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15/8/2014 at 1:35pm
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Why not contact Bailey and get your van downgraded to 1200kgs MTPLM?
If you have no intention of loading the van beyond this then you won`t have to get into protracted arguments with police or highway officers who may, or may not, actually know what the law states?
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15/8/2014 at 3:34pm
Location: Rochdale
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The police and Vosa know the law. Licence conditions are guided by plated weight, other weight conditions are guided by construction and use regulations that are all to do with whether actual weights exceed the plated weighrs. What is quoted as the law in the opening message is total claptrap , no such regulation exists.
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Bill
For a licence dated 1997 or later you must add together the plated max weight of the caravan and trailer, if the total is 3500 or less you can tow it. You may even tow a caravan with a MAM greater than the cars unladen mass the restriction was removed in 2013
Mondeo Titanium 140 tdci
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15/8/2014 at 3:58pm
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Thanks for the replies.
I've contacted my dealer to see if Bailey would downgrade the weight, but it's a no-go I'm afraid. Luckily, because the caravan hasn't been collected, the dealer has given me a full refund, so I'll be searching for a lightweight 4 berth over the weekend.
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15/8/2014 at 6:05pm
Location: Dumfries
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Lunar Venus range of vans have two 4 berth models with MTPLM,s below 1200kg
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15/8/2014 at 9:16pm
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This is a question that has come up before.
This is an extract of an email I received from VOSA.
1. The capability of the towing vehicle
The chassis plate on the vehicle (see diagram overleaf) states the maximum weights allowed - the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) and the Gross Combination Weight (GCW).
The vehicle handbook will either repeat what is on the chassis plate, or for convenience, might directly specify the maximum weight of trailer (e.g. 750kg) which is allowed to be towed. The V5C registration certificate often shows this too, under sections O1 and O2 (depending on whether trailer has brakes or not). Exceeding any of the above weights is likely to be construed as using a vehicle in a dangerous condition.
Where the sum of the maximum plated weights of the towing vehicle and of the trailer added together exceed the plated GCW of the towing vehicle, this is not a problem as long as the “actual” weights of the vehicle and trailer (which may not be fully laden at the time) do not exceed the plated GCW.
Similarly, the stated towing capacity of a vehicle may be lower than the maximum plated weight of a trailer, but that is not a problem as long as the trailer is not loaded above the towing capacity.
This assumes you hold the relevant towing rights on your licence, for those passing their tests after the changes in 1997 this applies, again extracted from the same email.
Unlike the situation in section 1 above, driving licence entitlement is calculated on potential weight - Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) - rather than actual weight. So if your entitlement allows you to tow a trailer with MAM 1000kg, you cannot tow a trailer with GVW of 2000kg that is unladen, and so weighs 800kg, when it is towed. You can only tow a trailer with GVW 1000kg.
If you wish to see the entire document I was sent you can contact James.Brown at dft.gsi.gov.uk and ask him for clarification on towing weight law explaining your question to him.
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15/8/2014 at 10:01pm
Location: fife
Outfit: vw t5 adria isonzo
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Quote: Originally posted by janus on 15/8/2014
The police and Vosa know the law.
No they don't. some think that they know it all. there interpretation can differ to what is in black and white in there own guide manuals
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15/8/2014 at 11:23pm
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Quote: Originally posted by diesel steve on 15/8/2014
Quote: Originally posted by janus on 15/8/2014The police and Vosa know the law.
No they don't. some think that they know it all. there interpretation can differ to what is in black and white in there own guide manuals
Just the point I was making. Anyone who thinks differently needs to spend more times on the road.
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17/8/2014 at 8:18am
Location: LEICESTER
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There is no law or rule which states that the plated weight of a trailer or caravan cannot exceed the manufacturers towing capacity - there are plenty of internet myths though!
Towing capacity 1200
Caravan MIRO 1102
Caravan MTPLM 1249
Load caravan with 98 kg = legal
If anyone tells you differently then ask them to point out the law which states such - they will not be able to
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EX Advanced driving observer (IAM)
EX LGV & B+E instructor
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17/8/2014 at 8:22am
Location: LEICESTER
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There no specific ;aw which prevents the towing capacity being exceeded but if it looks unsafe the driver can be prosecuted in court under section 100 of the C&U regs
Insurers may view exceeding a towing capacity as a reason to invalidate any claim
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EX Advanced driving observer (IAM)
EX LGV & B+E instructor
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17/8/2014 at 9:25am
Location: Berkshire
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As has been mentioned above the police / VOSA will approach this typically (in a on the street situation) in two ways:
For "driving otherwise in accordance with your licence" (i.e B v B+E) use the plated weights on your car and caravan to see if you can tow that combination IF it is at the maximum weight (what it actually weighs at that point is irrelvant)
If they think there are over weight offences (GW, GTW, MTPLM, etc) direct you to a approved weightbridge (or VOSA site) to weigh the combination. This will be done either on a per axle basis or by weighing the total combination or the car and caravan seperatly depending on the system in use and what they are looking at. It is also not commonly known that for enforcement purposes a small tolerance is applied before they prosecute and this is typically 5%.
On the subject of the law it still continues to surprise me how many people think it fine to tow a caravan without extension mirrors! On my way home yesterday (a 20 min drive) I saw 10 vans, 4 of which didnt have them.......and needed them!!
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17/8/2014 at 11:00am
Location: Worcestershire
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Quote: Originally posted by ROG. on 17/8/2014
There is no law or rule which states that the plated weight of a trailer or caravan cannot exceed the manufacturers towing capacity - there are plenty of internet myths though!
Towing capacity 1200
Caravan MIRO 1102
Caravan MTPLM 1249
Load caravan with 98 kg = legal
If anyone tells you differently then ask them to point out the law which states such - they will not be able to
Correct. The issue is exceeding the maximum gross train weight of the car. The MTPLM plate on a caravan is not a mandatory plate and as I far as I am aware can be removed without fear of prosecution. VOSA or the police would look at the load rating of the tyres if they were to prosecuted.
I am amazed that the dealer did not want to do the downgrade as this should be possible?
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17/8/2014 at 11:17am
Location: rugby
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I was told that my cars maximum towing weight was 1600kg and my dealer wouldn't sale me a Caravan which had an MTPLM 1605. If I signed a disclaimer stating I new it was over the maximum towing weight of the caravan. If I wasn't prepared to do that and got stopped he would be liable, for not informing me.
I had a Volvo V70 at the time.
Les
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The worst day fishing is better than the best day working
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17/8/2014 at 11:46am
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There is no law or rule that says I cannot fire my shotgun. There are several relating to when and at what I can.
There is no law or rule that says I cannot drive a motor vehicle with no licence,no insurance,no tax,no MOT, bald tyres, emitting black fumes like a fog with parts falling off it behind me while I down a bottle of Scotch but there are many if I want to take it on a public highway.
ROG's calculations may well be legal in a certain set of circumstances and there may well be no rule or law about the plated weight exceeding the towing capacity but as even he points out in his second post by doing it you may be committing another offence.
The law is seldom black and white, hence the myths and muddy water statements found on public forums, everyone has their own opinion, the issue is finding out which facts apply to your circumstances and making sure by doing one thing that is not defined as illegal you do not commit an offence that is.
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17/8/2014 at 6:48pm
Location: LEICESTER
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There is no law which states that the GVW of the vehicle added to the plated weight of a trailer/caravan must not be more than the plated GTW
If it did then virtually every time a LGV wagon hitched up to a drag trailer the trailer would need replating !!!!
Legal examples
Car
GVW 2000
GTW 3800
Towing capacity 1800
Trailer plated weight 3000
LGV
GVW 26000
GTW 44000
Trailer plated weight 24000
GTW refers ONLY to the actual weight of both vehicle and trailer when weighed together - that is the LAW
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EX Advanced driving observer (IAM)
EX LGV & B+E instructor
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