Home

   Log in or Register



Insurance Quotes
forums Campsite Search Comp Directory tips virtual brochure Profile
Tent and Awning Reviews Competitions Caravans and Motorhomes For Sale Shopping Diary Advent Calendar

Advertisement

Message Forums
Welcome Guest Register Login Search The Forum Posts Since Last Visit
 Reception - All Forums
   Caravans and Caravanning -  Caravan Towcars and Towing Advice 		Share   Post on X / Twitter  Share on Facebook  Email  Printer Friendly Version Print
Subject Topic: Time to scrap the 85% rule?
Page:  1  2  3 Post Reply Post New Topic
PersonHairywol
06/8/2015 at 9:37am
 Location: Teesside
 Outfit: Challenger Sport 524 + Volvo V90 D5 View Hairywol's Profile View Profile   Reply to Hairywol Reply   Quote Hairywol Quote  
Joined: 02/6/2005

Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Forum Posts:   1430
Tent Reviews:   6
Site Reviews Total: 29
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
The new Skoda Superb is out and the heaviest 2WD estate is only 1500K, even though they're rated to tow up to 2000Kg. The new Passat is even lighter with similar towing capacity.

Same story with every other car - even the new Merc E Class will probably shed 150Kg.

Going back to the Skoda, 85% means you can only tow a caravan of up to 1275Kg, and that means only the very lightest family vans, 2 berths, or old light vans.

I'm struck though that this rule (or guidance) goes back years, to before electronic assistance and before the effective brakes we have these days. It's a bit like the highway code which hasn't changed braking distances from the days of the Morris Minor and the crossply tyre..

Is it time to scrap the 85% rule, or even the 100% rule and say technology has moved on and a 1.5 tonne Skoda can safely tow a 2 tonne caravan, or are we destined to a life of 4X4 off-roaders as the only vehicles heavy enough?



-------------
Camping Gear expands so as to fill the space available for its transportation.


PersonNosaj
06/8/2015 at 9:57am
 Location: Rayleigh Essex
 Outfit: Currently looking View Nosaj's Profile View Profile   Reply to Nosaj Reply   Quote Nosaj Quote  
Joined: 24/6/2013

Standard Member
Standard Member

Forum Posts:   80
Tent Reviews:   2
Site Reviews Total: 3
Site Reviews 2024: 1  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 4
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
The high school physicist in me says that I'm not sure that I would be happy driving a 1500kg car with a 1950kg twin on the back as if that combo got a real wiggle on how would the car pull it back in line?

But, then I think about Artics and the weight they pull. The Truck units I assume are pulling well in excess of their kerb weight. I appreciate that this is slightly different but why does my high school physics not apply here.

Perhaps manafacturers have missed a trick and could make tow vehicle versions of their cars where the vehicle is specced to tow and with higher weights - surely lesser engineering would be involved than engineering the lighter weight vehicles.


Personsennen26
06/8/2015 at 10:00am
 Location: Lincs
 Outfit: Skoda Yeti and Coach View sennen26's Profile View Profile   Reply to sennen26 Reply   Quote sennen26 Quote  
Joined: 04/8/2006

Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Forum Posts:   1128
Site Reviews Total: 8
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
85 per cent is not a rule just a guide based on 1960's car.

Sennen


Persontentation
06/8/2015 at 10:24am
 Location: None Entered
 Outfit: None Entered View tentation's Profile View Profile   Reply to tentation Reply   Quote tentation Quote  
Joined: 15/3/2013

Standard Member
Standard Member

Forum Posts:   80
Tent Reviews:   1
Site Reviews Total: 2
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
I *think* the artic explanation (trailer much heaver than pulling unit) because the trailers are so very heavy indeed - not much is going to disturb them in normal driving conditions - it would take a very large vehicle passing at very high speed to unsettle a 40 tonne trailer, for example. They're also very dense - at least when full, which means the ratio of weight to surface area (for wind to catch) is relatively high.

A caravan on the other hand is mainly empty space, meaning that the surface area the wind can blow on is relatively large compared to the mass of the van, therefore it's more susceptible to wind. This is exacerbated by it being much lighter anyway, regardless of area:weight ratios, so it needs less force to unsettle it.

On top of that, lorries are pulled by cab units specifically designed to do so, and couple within the wheelbase of tractor, whereas on a car all the weight is hung out the back where it is less stable, and when it runs out of movement, can create more leverage.

Plus lorries are driven by professionals. I could tow up over 8 toones today, and I've never towed more than a 250kg trailer in my life.

The bigger the difference in mass between the car and the towed item the better in my opinion.


PersonMotobiman
06/8/2015 at 10:25am
 Location: 
 Outfit:  View Motobiman's Profile View Profile   Reply to Motobiman Reply   Quote Motobiman Quote  
Joined: 26/1/2015

Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Forum Posts:   670
Site Reviews Total: 7
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
Percentage weight of caravan compared to the tow vehicle is only one of many factors that affect stability and not the most important.

If the luddites had their way we would still have a man with a red flag walking in front of us.


Advertisement

Handiworld


Personsaxo1
06/8/2015 at 10:36am
 Location: None Entered
 Outfit: None Entered View saxo1's Profile View Profile   Reply to saxo1 Reply   Quote saxo1 Quote  
Joined: 29/10/2005

Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Forum Posts:   4489
Site Reviews Total: 0
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
"The high school physicist in me says that I'm not sure that I would be happy driving a 1500kg car with a 1950kg twin on the back as if that combo got a real wiggle on how would the car pull it back in line"

Trying to pull a snaking caravan back in line isn't the correct way to do it!
saxo1


Persontentation
06/8/2015 at 10:36am
 Location: None Entered
 Outfit: None Entered View tentation's Profile View Profile   Reply to tentation Reply   Quote tentation Quote  
Joined: 15/3/2013

Standard Member
Standard Member

Forum Posts:   80
Tent Reviews:   1
Site Reviews Total: 2
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
Quote:
If the luddites had their way we would still have a man with a red flag walking in front of us.


On the other hand, we'd have lots of skilled hand-weavers :)


Personbilly
06/8/2015 at 10:40am
 Location: North Essex
 Outfit: Caravelair Alba 400 View billy's Profile View Profile   Reply to billy Reply   Quote billy Quote  
Joined: 19/4/2002

Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Forum Posts:   4364
Site Reviews Total: 39
Site Reviews 2024: 9  
Site Reviews 2023: 6  
Site Reviews 2022: 7  
Site Reviews 2021: 10 
Site Reviews 2020: 7  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 121
Site Nights 2023: 45
Site Nights 2022: 91
Site Nights 2021: 112
Site Nights 2020: 84
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
Theres no 85% rule to scrap, all it does is point out that its a good idea to have a trailer that is lighter than the tow vehicle. This may help avoid a tail wags dog situation if evasive action at motorway speed is required, for example.

Its down to the driver to decide how much safety margin to leave. Nobody can say if a particular combination is safe or not, its down to the driver.


Personbilly
06/8/2015 at 10:50am
 Location: North Essex
 Outfit: Caravelair Alba 400 View billy's Profile View Profile   Reply to billy Reply   Quote billy Quote  
Joined: 19/4/2002

Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Forum Posts:   4364
Site Reviews Total: 39
Site Reviews 2024: 9  
Site Reviews 2023: 6  
Site Reviews 2022: 7  
Site Reviews 2021: 10 
Site Reviews 2020: 7  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 121
Site Nights 2023: 45
Site Nights 2022: 91
Site Nights 2021: 112
Site Nights 2020: 84
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
I tend to think that those referring to the 85% guideline as some sort of a rule are the ones who should be taking notice of it. What one needs is an understanding of the dynamics involved and then one can decide accordingly what one wants to tow.

Those who have to ask on a forum if any particular combination is safe or not would be well advised to simply stick to towing a caravan considerably lighter than their car.


PersonMotobiman
06/8/2015 at 10:57am
 Location: 
 Outfit:  View Motobiman's Profile View Profile   Reply to Motobiman Reply   Quote Motobiman Quote  
Joined: 26/1/2015

Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Forum Posts:   670
Site Reviews Total: 7
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
Quote: Originally posted by tentation on 06/8/2015
Quote: If the luddites had their way we would still have a man with a red flag walking in front of us.


On the other hand, we'd have lots of skilled hand-weavers :)



And higher taxes .........   


Advertisement

Handiworld


PersonMotobiman
06/8/2015 at 10:57am
 Location: 
 Outfit:  View Motobiman's Profile View Profile   Reply to Motobiman Reply   Quote Motobiman Quote  
Joined: 26/1/2015

Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Forum Posts:   670
Site Reviews Total: 7
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
Quote: Originally posted by Billy x on 06/8/2015
I tend to think that those referring to the 85% guideline as some sort of a rule are the ones who should be taking notice of it. What one needs is an understanding of the dynamics involved and then one can decide accordingly what one wants to tow.

Those who have to ask on a forum if any particular combination is safe or not would be well advised to simply stick to towing a caravan considerably lighter than their car.


Finally, something we agree on.


Persontentation
06/8/2015 at 10:59am
 Location: None Entered
 Outfit: None Entered View tentation's Profile View Profile   Reply to tentation Reply   Quote tentation Quote  
Joined: 15/3/2013

Standard Member
Standard Member

Forum Posts:   80
Tent Reviews:   1
Site Reviews Total: 2
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
Quote: Nobody can say if a particular combination is safe or not, its down to the driver.


I'd disagree. Take a relatively light but powerful car - modern diesels can be tuned to high levels of output, so it's not that hard to get 200bhp / 300+lb/ft out of a car weighing not much more than 1300kg - in fact 10 years ago the Alfa 156 2.4 came with 175bhp / 285lb-ft and weighed 1400kg and engines these days seem ever more powerful.

Anyway - such a car could - in pure weight terms - pull pretty much any caravan you cared to attach to it at a decent speed. In fact I've just looked up that 10 year-old Alfa at whattowcar, and it gets a five star rating (red warning stars, obviously) with the heaviest van with the heaviest load in it you can set - it could pull it quickly and easily with the caravan and luggage weighing 162% of the car.


It's quite clear to me that such an outfit would be unsafe at speed regardless who was driving though. The only question surely is at what point it becomes unsafe?


PersonMotobiman
06/8/2015 at 11:14am
 Location: 
 Outfit:  View Motobiman's Profile View Profile   Reply to Motobiman Reply   Quote Motobiman Quote  
Joined: 26/1/2015

Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Forum Posts:   670
Site Reviews Total: 7
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
And suspension, brakes and tyres have come on too.


PersonVectratot
06/8/2015 at 11:47am
 Location: DURHAM
 Outfit: Mondeo TItanium 140 Avondale Mayfly 25 View Vectratot's Profile View Profile   Reply to Vectratot Reply   Quote Vectratot Quote  
Joined: 21/3/2005

Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Forum Posts:   2526
Site Reviews Total: 8
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 0
Caravan & car combination cannot be compared to an artic, regarding towing weights, totally different towing arrangements, position of trailer connection, position of trailer axle 1,2 or 3, brake hose connections, double axle on the tractor unit and no doubt more.


Persontango55
06/8/2015 at 1:17pm
 Location: Lichfield
 Outfit: Coachman Amara 450 View tango55's Profile View Profile   Reply to tango55 Reply   Quote tango55 Quote  
Joined: 15/5/2008

Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Forum Posts:   9587
Site Reviews Total: 23
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 3  
Site Reviews 2021: 1  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 4  
Site Reviews 2018: 0  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 11
Site Nights 2021: 3
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 24
Site Nights 2018: 0
When a vehicle manufacturer states a maximum towing capacity, what they have actually done at the research and development department is conducted a stress test to prove how much distortion the towbar and fixings will accept before it fractures at any given point. If the fracture occurs before 100% of the vehicle's kerbweight then the towbar is deemed unsafe which the team have to approach the design department to see where improvements can be made and re-design the towbar accordingly. When they finally reach a satisfactory breaking point the figure is applied which is then stated in the vehicle brochure which is why various vehicles have different towing limits. This means that the figure applied has no connection whatsoever with a safe towing limit so by eliminating the 85% margin would be catastrophic to say the least because people would think that a 110% match would be safe when it is far from the truth in real terms of safe towing. Yes, the 85% is only a guide and not a legal requirement but you will find that if you tow a trailer in excess of the vehicle kerbweight (100%) then you are not only risking the lives of those in your vehicle and other road users but would also be invalidating your car insurance as well.
At the end of the day it's all about understanding the facts how the manufacturers calculate their towing figures and why they have no relativity to safe towing margins.


VangoMan02
06/8/2015 at 1:57pm
 Location: 
 Outfit:  View VangoMan02's Profile View Profile   Reply to VangoMan02 Reply   Quote VangoMan02 Quote  
Joined: 18/5/2007

Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Forum Posts:   3531
Tent Reviews:   7
Site Reviews Total: 21
Site Reviews 2024: 0  
Site Reviews 2023: 0  
Site Reviews 2022: 0  
Site Reviews 2021: 0  
Site Reviews 2020: 0  
Site Reviews 2019: 0  
Site Reviews 2018: 1  
Site Nights 2024: 0
Site Nights 2023: 0
Site Nights 2022: 0
Site Nights 2021: 0
Site Nights 2020: 0
Site Nights 2019: 0
Site Nights 2018: 1
I think we see enough badly matched combinations on the road and has often been mentioned on this forum without opening the flood gates to allow more.

Its all been said before, there are good drivers and bad drivers solo or towing. The bad ones just become more dangerous when towing.

I personally would not like to tow a caravan heavier than my car. Try to do a hill start on a steep hill and enjoy going backwards.
I spoke to a guy years ago in Scarborough who said he had to plan his route in fine detail due to the very reason I just mentioned, he could not pull the van up a steep hill let alone a hill start. They are out there!!

As an aside, I wonder how Insurance companies would deal with an accident claim if caravan was heavier that the car, how do they view the 85% guideline?

-------------
It is a wise man who has something to say.
It is a fool who has to say something.



In order to post a reply you will need to register, or if already registered please log in here

Prev       Next

Jump To Page:  1  2  3

Quick Links - All Forums - Caravan Towcars and Towing Advice - Top of Page

Printer Friendly Version Printable version      Share   Post on X / Twitter  Share on Facebook  Email


Latest News, Discounts and Competitions  see all...

5528 Visitors online !

Free UKCampsite.co.uk Window Sticker  -  Recommend to Friend  -  Add a Missing Campsite

[Message Forums]  [Caravan Sites & Camping]  [Company Listings]  [Features / Advice]  [Virtual Brochure]  [Shop!]
[Reception]  [Competitions]  [Caravans & Motorhomes For Sale]  [Event Diary]  [Contact Us]  [Tent Reviews] 



Please note we are not responsible for the content of external sites & any reviews represent the author's personal view only. Please report any error here. You may view our privacy and cookie policy and terms and conditions here. All copyrights & other intellectual property rights in the design and content of this web site are reserved to the UKCampsite.co.uk © 1999 - 2024


Advertisement
Advertisement


UKCampsite.co.uk
2024 Advent Calendar

Advent Calendar

24 Daily Prizes PLUS a Christmas Day Star Prize worth £999

Request a Reminder