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Valbarly is the one to ask about bell tents,she will put you in the right direction.

http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/chatter/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=3&TopicID=263269

Quote: Originally posted by philoxene on 05/12/2011

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It helps, Mark Royal, to understand these different methods of proofing the tents.

Can you answer to the following questions when (only!) there should be differences between cotton and poly-cotton 50% (that would be same weight/m2 and proofed), regarding:
- strength, along time; shrinkage; UV resistance along time;
- mildiew/rot resistance;
- soaked canvas when wet (after big rain, poly-cotton becomes much less heavy?) and drying time; without proofing, poly-cotton can't "drink" water to naturally become water-repellent?
- breathability (important for comfort when hot/cold weather);
- fire (wood-stove inside tent): is the proofing (water/mildiew/rot) chemical treatment (impregnation) making first danger for canvas to become more flammable, is the 50% polyester in poly-cotton adding second danger?
- treatment: same for cotton or poly-cotton? how much weight (oz, g/m2) does it add to the canvas (when an oz is announced, is it after treatment)?

Strength: The 50/50 Poly-cotton is stronger and more durable than cotton. There is no shrinkage and the material does not break down under UV.
Mildew/Rot: Both materials have the same resistance to mildew and rot and this is to do with the anti-fungal chemicals used rather than any inherent material properties. The biggest problem is making sure a lot of the manufacturers use the correct amount of chemicals and don't skimp. One of the reasons we use German manufacturers.
Soaked Canvas: 50/50 poly-cotton gets just as heavy as modern cotton i.e. about 30-50% heavier. This is due to the fact that polycotton weaves are tighter and so there are more fibres to absorb the water etc. Drying time is the same as it is the cotton that absorbs the moisture not the polyester.
Breathability: Just as good as a similar weight cotton tent. Most people take the heavy weight materials either for their durability or for the extra insulation and weather properties for out of season camping. They will not be as cool in very hot weather as a 285g modern cotton as that has a looser weave.
Fire: No difference. Fire is not dangerous, we sell the German scout tents and these have a fire inside and no fire proofing whatsoever. It's actually quite hard to accidently set fire to a modern cotton tent despite all the stories and scare-mongering that exists out there. As long as you fit you flashing correctly and use common sense you won't have a problem.
Treatment: This adds no physical weight. Cotton weight actually refers to the tightness of the weave not it's physical weight - although a tighter weave does mean more fibres which does mean more weight. I'm not sure why we refer to the density as weight but I can tell you that a square metre piece of cotton of 285g/m2 does not weigh 285g! Suffice to say, 285g is considered fine for normal camping (2-4 weeks) during the normal season (Easter to Oct half term). Outside of this period or for longer use start to consider the heavier materials.
g/oz: Purely the difference between metric and imperial. Roughly: 285=10oz, 320=12oz, 450=16oz.

Regarding the Ranger ex-hire tents:
- cleaning the dirt: what would it be not to clean it(except esthetics), also regarding cotton or polycotton moisture/mildiew resistance?
- optionnal groundsheet (ex-hire?): which are the + and - between PVC and coated polyester fabric? at bottom of walls: which fabric is there and how high (also to go under groundsheet)?
- eyelets: is it brass or steel?
- 3.4m center pole: 3 or 2 pieces?
- entrance: is a zip possible?

Cleaning: The tents have been used for a season of festival hire so are rather dirty and it is dirt that gives mold and mildew a place to hide and breed. Cleaning and having the fibres soaked and reproofed will bring these tents back to as new condition and ensure that there is nothing nasty lurking.
Groundsheet: These don't come with a groundsheet so you can either get a PVC one (which is fine for normal camping), a heavy duty polyester coated fabric which weighs more but is more durable and gives better floor insulation (better for out of season) or just use cheap tarps and rag rugs (which is what we do :-) ). The groundstrip is PVC and a good 40-50cm in depth and both tucks under any groundsheet you put in the tent and protrudes upwards a bit to protect the poly-cotton from ground dirt. PVC can be wiped clean. I would personally beware of sackcloth or hessian as these are mud and dirt traps and thus perfect for mold/fungus/anything to grow in.
Eyelets: Usually brass. These particular Rangers have zips fitted as festival goers aren't too good with Dutch lacing.
Centre pole: 4 pieces of quite chunky steel - this is a big tent and you need a proper strength centre pole to withstand the pressure of the wind against the cotton. There are also 11 side poles and an entrance pole. These are big tents.
Entrance: Zipped in this case although any of our tents can be modified to meet your exact requirements as we have a tent repair workshop here in Germany where we also do development/research into new tent designs.

Excuse-me to be so long! (and when bad English)
No apologies required either for your English or quantity of questions. It's important to us, as a company, that you get the right tent for you - even if it turns out to not be one of ours. You have to look at and use this tent for a good 15-20 years (which is the minimum we expect our tents to last if looked after properly) and we don't want you getting it out and being disappointed everytime. Any more questions please ask; as far as I'm concerned that's what I'm here for.

Hmmm, just told me nothing to preview so I hope this posts properly - just quickly copy it in case..
Post last edited on 05/12/2011 19:45:13

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Quote: Originally posted by philoxene on 14/12/2011

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3.4m top and 1m high sides will ask for a powerful stove!

Some companies tell treatments (water-mildiew-rot, and fire-retardant) add weight;
one gives the weight per square meter of cotton canvas before treatment,
another one writes their 50/50 poly-cotton treatment adds 2.84 lb/ft2(=120g/m2): from 7.6 before treatment to 10.44 lb/ft2 after (=320 to 440g/m2).

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Quote: Originally posted by philoxene on 15/12/2011From what I learnt speaking with Can Vas Camp (also from their website), about their 5m Bell tent ZIG pro (mainly for professional/hire use):it's same as the nice 5m Bell tent ZIG, (same geometry/seams/size/groundsheet/poles...), with main differences :

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- polycotton canvas instead of cotton: 440g/sqm coated, 320g/sqm uncoated (canvas treatment=before tent making);
- 2 mesh-nets in entrance;
- flame-retardant treatment, agreeing California, CE norms;
- "may be" (not totally sure, as far as I understood/can remember) with fireproof-panel (when stove flue-pipe going horizontal through side-wall), to be fitted (zipped?) instead of mesh-window so that the window-flap can still go upon the panel (to close the round-hole when no flue-pipe);
- stronger guy-lines/pegs.
(and other differences...)

Quote: Polycotton, what they say about their pro model: .it makes the material flatter (like rigid, straight) and some less breathing than cotton; .it makes the canvas some less exposed/weak/prone to mildew than cotton (but still needs total drying before storage!);

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.the waterproofing treatment would last same time, should it be Ultimate or Ultimate Pro model, (cotton or poly-cotton),
since both of them will lost their treatment quality quicker when exposed to sun UV.
(I add: better to camp in North country, or here under some shadow!)

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Quote: I understand this some heavier (total= 35kg versus 31.5kg) 5m Bell ZIG pro in polycotton, some less breathing (=less comfort when hot/cold?) and more expensive (700€ versus 500€), could be also for someone looking for out-season camping in a may be "more durable" ZIG Bell, including flame-retardant treatment. edit: dictionary search, trying to tell exactly what I was told in French!

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Post last edited on 15/12/2011 19:31:19

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