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Subject Topic: Power Monitor
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25/9/2012 at 7:39pm
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I added a solar panel to the roof of my caravan last year and always felt like I needed to monitor the battery a bit more accurately than the analogue voltmeter built into the caravan does.

I have just designed, built and installed a system that will plug into the USB port of a laptop and monitor battery voltage, battery temperature, current drain or charge to and from the battery and also shows the ambient temperature in the caravan.

The components cost about £25 plus several hours work designing the circuitry and writing the software.

This is very much a work in progress at the moment, but I was wondering if it had any marketing potential. There are several possibilities for further development so if anyone has any suggestions for further features they would be interested in then please shout them out.

I would be prepared to supply a few at cost price to members to see what there thoughts were, though it may take a few weeks to get the parts shipped in from Asia as I used two ready made circuits in addition to my own as they were cheaper than buying the components to build them.

I have got the facility in it to measure the level of gas in a fixed tank, but unless I can find a way of electronically reading the level in a calor gas bottle then I don't see an easy way of making that work.


25/9/2012 at 9:22pm
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That sounds an interesting idea.

When you say monitoring, do you mean remotely or do you have to have the system plugged into a laptop so you can only see the data while you are in the van?

Or is the system a data logger that records the information for later analysis?

Simon



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25/9/2012 at 10:09pm
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I have the Morningstar meter which monitors their "Duo" solar controller's performance.
I find it interesting to be able to read out the AH each battery gets each day. It readily can be zeroed.

A further feature I would like is to know the drain in AH the batteries loads apply; thus seeing that the requisite balance in/out is there.
At the moment observing that the controller is backing down the charge effectively informs me that the solar cell has replenished what was drained off.

Please keep us informed how this experiment unfolds.


26/9/2012 at 6:09am
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At the moment, the data is transmitted through the USB port in real time. It would certainly be possible to have a limited amount of this stored on the system, just how much depends on the sampling rate.

In order to access the data remotely it would need to ideally use the internet although short range blue tooth connection is an option.

Recording average amp hours in and out would be straightforward, the data is all there, it is just a matter of cross referencing it with the time base.


26/9/2012 at 7:34am
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Quote: Originally posted by DaveCoaches on 26/9/2012

Recording average amp hours in and out would be straightforward, the data is all there, it is just a matter of cross referencing it with the time base.



Sorry if my understanding is lacking, but as AH is an "amount" rather than a "rate" would the last read reading not indicate the total amount either added or taken from the battery (ies)?
I was thinking of some sort of in system buffer that you could zero when confident the battery(ies) are fully charged and then interrogate periodically to get an idea if they had received enough AH to replace that drained.

I am aware that any true form of "state of charge" monitoring of lead acid batteries whilst"in use"is very difficult but feel something that knows the amount depleted and added [or the difference]is an easier solution giving quite a meaningful "guide" to the SoC.

I certainly find my Morningstar meter gives me valuable information on what my solar cells have gathered; I zero it each morning. However I have to mentally compute what I think I have used in that period.

Whilst knowing voltages and amps is interesting it is not very meaningful even to the technically aware; I feel knowing the amount of battery capacity we have remaining at anyone time is what we really need to know?

Thanks John


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26/9/2012 at 8:30am
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I think there is some confusion here. Amp Hours is generally considered to be the capacity of the battery which doesn't change except as the battery breaks down. It is the number of amps that can be drawn from the battery for an hour before it is flat.

I think what you are actually asking for and I may be wrong is either something to indicate the "fullness" for want of a better word of the battery or is it an average charge or discharge rate since the system was last reset?

For example if the battery has had an average of 5 amps put into it for an hour, that would have had what you are referring to as 5 amp hours charge. If it had an hour of 10 amps and an hour of 5 amps, the result would be 7.5 amp hours charge?

Whatever is added, then it is important not to make the power consumption too high. I have got the system running on 3 mA at the moment which is pretty negligable. If we start getting into powering some kind of mobile internet access then this is going to increase, as is the cost of running it as there will be mobile dada costs plus the additional hardware. I like the idea of data logging, but I suspect that in the interests of power conservation it would be better to have the data downloadable by either USB or possibly by activating a blue tooth interface manually which would normally be powered down. Either of these is a relatively cheap and easy option, particularly the USB option.

I am not in the business of developing things like this at the moment so I am not touting for business at all, however if there is enough interest, I may have to reconsider that as I have also been working on several other non-caravan related projects with the hope that I may hit upon something that is commercially viable.

As I said in my original post, all suggestions or requests are welcome. One of the boards I bought in is the data aquisition device so if I add data logging I will have to develop my own alternative to that although that is not a big issue it will take time.



26/9/2012 at 10:16am
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Dave I am a little concerned that you might be reinventing the wheel as remote data panels for PV/battery systems are readily available and would not need the use of a laptop to get the information. A stand alone lcd display with a small amount of storage for data would be of much more use and have a larger market. Some of the Chinese companies are offering MPPT regs and remote monitoring of 20A PV systems for dual batteries. It is not about what is possible it is about what people need and are prepared to pay for and are you prepared to get the device certified and take out product liability insurance.

I am a tinkering type of person and am always looking for new ideas but so far none have been commercially viable. A classic example arose about 20 odd years back when remote sensing of the water level in an aquaroll was being promoted heavily in the press. I was one of the many that said 'I can do that' and designed a simple plug in system and led monitor together with an automatic pump power off at low level. Great, it worked but no one wanted to pay for it and now you don't see people using anything like it. I don't want to put you off developing gadgets but don't invest too much time and effort in the hope of getting a return without doing a detailed market study and analysis of ongoing potential. If you treat it as a bit of fun you will get more out of it. My pet idea is a fully integrated electrical system with auto temporary shut off of devices if power exceeds preset limits, modular battery system with Li-ion batteries that can be 'hot swapped' to take into account of anticipated usage, grid tie of solar panels when on ehu to reduce demand on sites system (anticipation of metering), facility to seamlessly plug in fuel cell systems etc. All good fun thinking about it but I know I will never get it to market although I might win the Euromillions this week and have enough spare cash do do what I want

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26/9/2012 at 10:46am
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All things are possible. My hope is that all the things mentioned can be incorporated into the system. I used a laptop primarily to simplify development. An LCD display is an easy addition but would require more power. The system as it stands draws its power from the USB port.

Power consumption has to be a big consideration. Why monitor your battery voltage if doing so is going to flatten the battery.

We maybe getting too bogged down with the solar aspect too. Much of the data can be used to ascertain the condition of the battery, not just the power in it.

I am not about to give up my job and peruse this, it was developed to fulfill my requirements rather than a commercial venture. If anyone is interested in something along these lines then this is there opportunity to ask.

I am doing thus as a hobby primarily although if anyone were to require something remotely similar I could arrange that.
I don't see a business venture in selling a single product so much as there is with a product developed for the individual provided the cost is compable with mass market equivalents.


26/9/2012 at 10:48am
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Sorry about the predictive text above, I am typing on a mobile phone.


27/9/2012 at 7:00pm
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Given this some more consideration. Keeping tabs on the remaining charge in the battery is an option by metering the discharge and charge from a full battery and by configuring the capacity of the battery it should be possible to calculate that after having X amps discharged for a given period and Y amps recharged for a given period there remaining capacity is Z amp hours.

There is an issue wit this though as the chip used to measure the current is only capable of measuring +- 20 amps. I think there are slightly bigger ones available but none that I would confidently run a motor mover through.

There may be a way around this though if I can get a signal to the processor to show that the mover is in use and assume that it would be taken an average predetermined current.

There should be no need to calibrate a full battery as the system should be capable of working this out automatically if there is no charge being put in and the battery voltage is at it's maximum.

Another consideration and a development of the aquaroll level detection is to measure the temperature of the aqua roll and if it falls below 0 degrees to heat it slightly.

There are a few possible ways of doing this, one would be to have a 12 volt element in the aquaroll, this would not be my preferred choice though as it would probably mean modifying the aquaroll to fit it.

Another option would be to pump water around the inside of the caravan to take the chill off and return it to the aquaroll which while not the most efficient may be the best of the three possibilities I have thought of.

The third option would be to pump hot water from the water heater back into the aquaroll. I don't like the thought of this as the aquaroll is potentially drinking water and it goes against common practice to drink water from the hot water system although many people do not drink the water from the aquaroll so would be a good option for them.

I looked at the Chinese MPPT regulators and remote sensing after reading the above post. The biggest drawback I see on them is the price. Bearing in mind it only monitors the solar charge, it is not capable of being adapted or updated to add other features as the owners requirements change. I have never seen anything that can monitor the battery temperature during the charge cycle.


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27/9/2012 at 8:26pm
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Whilst the mover can take a large current this is in many cases encountered for a short time and even during that period is not drawing at its maximum.
Even if we use the mover for 5 minutes and the mean draw is 60 Amps this still only amounts to a "capacity" loss of 5 AH. I suggest this is a way over estimate of most users drain.

The drain taken leaving home/storage is likely to be replaced under towing so it is only the pitching depletion that effects our on site battery SoC?

Therefore I question how important it really is to monitor its current?

The feed to the mover is also likely to be totally separate from the van's services.


27/9/2012 at 9:15pm
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Personally, I don't see the mover as a big issue. However, one of the suggestions I think was to monitor the charge or discharge and tally one against the other. If the current draw of the motor mover were not taken into account then that would leave a big hole in the result.

This is the reason I was thinking of taking a signal to show the mover is being used and all while this is happening to guestimate how much current it would typically be drawing.

I do think this would be unnecessary though as the voltage should be sufficient to tell how much is left in the battery without the need to compare the charge and discharge averages.


28/9/2012 at 7:55am
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In the spirit of discussing rather than arguing:

Whilst the voltage can be used to tell a batteries SoC it is a very complicated and notoriously difficult one in practice to achieve, certainly for a battery in use rather than well rested.
You would for the particular trace alloying of the lead in the specific battery fitted need full SoC mapping of the read voltage against the current flowing, for current values both positive and negative. It is additionally complicated by the time to dissipate surface charge effects,as most of us interested in managing our batteries will also have gone solar.
Hence my feeling it is easier to compute the sum of current flow, plus and minus and time?

I felt the complication and additional cost of covering the mover's drain is not worth the effort. Pointing out it does actually not contribute much, and if you zeroed the metering directly after pitching up you would have a reference point with the battery very near full.
Assuming we start away from "home" near full, the getting hitched up mover drain will be replaced on route, so arriving at full SoC. The battery after pitching will be full except for the mover drain taken pitching up. I argued this in reality will be a small drain, and then only if used, so does it warrant the complication?

Post last edited on 28/09/2012 08:02:19


28/9/2012 at 9:14am
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Dave, the issue re heating water could be overcome by heating the aquaroll from the outside using traceheating but that would assume being on ehu. I did a bit of playing with an old insulated jacket with a trace heating element sown into it and extended along the pipe cover to the inlet. The type I used was the self regulating version to save trying to monitor the temp. It worked ok but tbh it was more of a solution looking for a problem as the number of nights when anything more than a simple insulated cover is needed tends to be relatively few and for most people it would be nil. A heating pad under the waste water tank was of more use and I still use that if on ehu for more than a couple of nights in freezing weather.

Re discharge rates of batteries, something in the back of my mind tells me that the capacity is for a given rate of discharge and that a high discharge rate effects the figure negatively. Somewhere I have seen a graph of this and it was not linear. If I can find a copy I will let you know and maybe then you can decide if it has any effect on the calcs.

It might be worth taking a look at Mastervolt and Victron Energy websites as they do systems for marine use and a limited amount for motorhomes.

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28/9/2012 at 7:25pm
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Thanks birder. I think you are right about the discharge rates actually. Personally I am happy looking at the voltage to ascertain how much power is left in the battery, but someone has asked about comparing the charge and discharge rates so I didn't want to dismiss it but as you say, it is not going to give any better indication of what is left in the battery than a simple volt meter.

I have been away in the winter and not had any problems with my aqua roll and agree that it is not going to be a problem for most, but you do see a lot of people asking the question about protecting their aqua roll from freezing in the winter, so an automated protection may well be of interest to them.

There is a conflict here though between what I required, something primarily to monitor my battery and solar panel and something to monitor the temperature of the aqua roll and heat it if needed. The former requiring something with a minimal power consumption, but the latter my virtue of it heating an aqua roll is going to be power hungry and not something you want to be running without EHU. Of course, the system could disable some features depending on whether the EHU is connected, an easy detection to make.

I have essentially a working prototype installed in my caravan, but I think I will need to replace the processor with one of my own design and program so that it is not PC dependent and can run a data logger so that the data can be uploaded to a PC for further analysis while displaying locally on an LCD display.

So far the critical inputs required are the current sensor to detect the charge or discharge at the battery, a voltmeter across the battery. I do like the temperature sensor on the battery as I think it could help diagnose imminent battery failure, though without an external temperature sensor to compare this too it is of limited value, so I think two temperature sensors minimum would be better.

Then onto the aqua roll, a level sensor, ideally analogue would be nice although I am not convinced it is that beneficial, it is not that difficult to give the aqua roll a shake when you go past. Actually a cheaper alternative to the level detection might be to weigh the aqua roll to calculate the water level by weight.

A temperature sensor in the aqua roll could be useful, with EHU it could be used to heat the aqua roll, without maybe just put a warning light on in the caravan.

An easily readable gas level detection would be good, but with many different size and weight bottles, it's not something that can be easily achieved without getting very expensive.

Any other thoughts would be welcome so I can start writing the software.

As I said earlier, the idea is to make it easily customisable to suit different people although to do that, you have to anticipate what may be required in the future so that you don't preclude future development by making a wrong turn in the early stages.



28/9/2012 at 8:00pm
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Dave, I think what you are looking at is something similar to the canbus used in the automotive world where standard interfaces are used. In the caravan world you are going to need some sort of signal converter as the device manufacturers don't appear to have a common standard as yet, but you never know the NCC may get off bums and talk with their counterparts worldwide and agree on standards instead of acting like a gatekeeper for a glorified and fragmented cottage industry.

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