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We've had a Lunar Saturn since 1992 but now it's time to change it for something new, with a bit more space too and maybe a little plusher and with a few more of the (probably unnecessary) features that we all seem to want these days.

After trawling internet newgroups and looking around on here, it seems that the demon delamination and damp problems still plague the British caravan industry - though not everyone suffers from it.  I was one of the unlucky ones - the Lunar suffered from both, more than once!!

I've looked at one of the "Best of British"  - the Bailey Senator range (now with 6 year damp warranty) and, despite all their caravan of the year awards was not especially impressed. 

German caravans - Hymer and Burstner for example, seem to be *much* better made.  They both now have UK style layouts with external doors on the right (as distinct from wrong) side too. 

I'd love to be able to buy British again but cannot really see a good reason why I should.  If I can't find some sensible caravanning folks to talk me out of it, I think our Isuzu Trooper is going to be pulling a Hymer 570 GS before too long. 

So - why shouldn't I buy a German caravan?  Are British vans really still leaky (despite the warranties)?

Help!!

Cheers
Andrew (confused of Oldham)

Andrew

If you want to by a German caravan why not just buy one. I have have 3 new UK vans over the past 17 years and not had any problems. UK vans are far better equiped than German vans (if purchased in Germany) they tend to cram far too many berths in and are generally much heavier so. You would be OK because you have a suitable beast to tow it with. They do have a reputation for being well built but I have also seen stories of damp in German vans - just in different places to UK vans. The trouble with just accepting what is said on the internet it that there are a few people out there who have lost all subjectivity on UK vans and rather that saying were disappointed with UK vans and decided to buy European they seem to take delight in running down UK made vans when the majority of UK van owners have no idea what they are talking about. Quite clearly most German manufacturers are not interested in the UK markets as all but a handfull refuse to make vans with the door on the UK side.

David

Hi Andrew

Believe it or not but last Autumn I parted with my 1962 (Yes 1962) Fisher Holivan 2 berth measured 8ft x 5ft, not a bit of damp anywhere, towed like a dream on its mini size wheels. Sold it to another vintage enthusiast who is over the moon with it. If I knew how to affix a photo I would show it behind my VW Transporter.

the Musicmaker

I have been looking at German vans, they seem solid and reliable.  But for us there are several problems...........very few dealers for servicing/repairs, and none near us..........none do the layout we want, fixed double bed and large end shower room..........standard equipment level is not as good as UK vans so we would need to add several extras............and any that we do like are too big to be towed here by an ordinary 4x4.

So I think we will be buying British again next time.

Quote: Originally posted by Musicmaker on 30/1/2006

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Hi Andrew

Believe it or not but last Autumn I parted with my 1962 (Yes 1962) Fisher Holivan 2 berth measured 8ft x 5ft, not a bit of damp anywhere, towed like a dream on its mini size wheels. Sold it to another vintage enthusiast who is over the moon with it. If I knew how to affix a photo I would show it behind my VW Transporter.

the Musicmaker

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I had the 11 foot early 70s one , sold it in 2004  also to another holivan fan. waw yours quilt sided mustard coloured as well?

Quote: Originally posted by PCI75 on 31/1/2006

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Buy a Hymer great make although from experience the Bursmer is not so good, not got the quality.

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At the moment, the runners are a 2006 Hymer GS 570, which we can't have until June with the upholstery we would want and a (new) 2005 Burstner TS500 which we could have now and is nearly £5K cheaper.  Both have doors on the UK side.

The comparison between the two is difficult because the layouts are different - but both are (kind of) acceptable.   We are a family of 3 adults (couple plus adult daughter)

* The Hymer has bench front seats with a rather natty sets of drawers with a built-in pull-out coffee table.  On the other hand the Burstner has wrap around seating at the front, which at least two members of the family much prefer.  Burstner 1 Hymer 0. 

* The Hymer has a centre dinette that converts into just about the only single bed, that I have seen, that is an acceptable width - 3ft 1in.  AFAIK, all the singles in other vans are much narrower and unacceptable.  The Burstner has a fixed double at the rear, which is great - but that eats into the living space.   Possibly a slight advantage for the Hymer.  Burstner 1 Hymer 1

* There is little difference in the standard of the kitchen in the two vans, providing you trade off the joke cutlery drawer in the Burstner against the joke sink in the Hymer.  The Hymer loses out though because there is just about zero kitchen workspace if you put your TV where Hymer intend on the top of the fridge.  The Burstner has a dedicated TV station that doesn't detract from the kitchen workspace.  Burstner 2 Hymer 1

* The Hymer definitely has the better washroom - but the Burstner isn't at all bad & is certainly way better than I'm used to in the Lunar Saturn that we've lived with for the past 14 years.  Burstner 2 Hymer 2

* The Hymer has little or no space for stowing the junk that we all take around with us, when towing - awnings,  aquaroll, wastemaster, boxes of food, vacuum cleaner, wok and so on.  The Burstner, OTOH, has a humungous storage space under the fixed bed that can accessed from inside or via an external door.  I'm almost tempted to give the Burstner 2 points for that.  Burstner 3 Hymer 2.

* The Hymer has the flimsiest curtains I've yet seen in a caravan. It also has lace curtains that run on what looks like washing line that is fixed to the front sill by a tiny hook that will pull out the very first time the curtains are opened or closed.   The Burstner is streets ahead here.  Burstner 4 Hymer 2.

* The general quality of the interior woodwork - drawers, cupboards, wardrobe and so on is much better in both vans than anything I've seen in a British van (though I haven't been in a *new* Vanmaster).  I cannot really separate them here.  Still Burstner 4 Hymer 2.

* The Hymer has this patented injected foam wall/roof construction that I think I should be impressed with.  It is claimed that you can walk on the roof; that you never get damp and that the floors never delaminate.  The Burstner dealer also claims that you can walk on the roof (presumably to clean the it) and that he has never seen damp or a delaminated floor in a Burstner.  I think though that it still has to concede at least one point to the Hymer on construction.  Burstner 4 Hymer 3.

* The Burstner has a CD/radio as standard - but the Hymer isn't even wired for one.   Both have UK style battery charging, proper hobs and ovens, a TV aerial and amplifier. Both have loose fit carpets with a very nice vinyl floor underneath.  Burstner 5 Hymer 3.

I really don't want to get involved in importing a caravan.  I know it's cheaper, but its a lot of faffing about for not that much saving *and* I'm pretty sure I'd have loads of aggravation getting an imported van serviced or (god forbid) a repair fixed under warranty in this country.

I know there are other German caravans that I could look at - Geist, Knaus, Dethlefs, Hobby and maybe others too but it's not obvious from the brochures and web sites I've seen that any have significant layout advantages over the Hymer or Burstner.

I have a sneaking feeling, although she has not (yet?) admitted it, that SWMBO *wants* to buy the Hymer (it has the best cutlery drawer we've ever seen in a caravan).  Difficult to assess, but I suspect that the final score might be  Burstner 5 Hymer 99 Everything else 0.  

I think I'll sleep on it ..............

Cheers
Andrew

 

Hi Andrew - really enjoyed the comparison. We looked at Hymers at GMEX and thought they were fantastic. We have 3 kids and the layout with fixed bunks and dinette at one end would give them their own space - fantastic! Only downside sleeping across van at front means one of us climbing over the other if we need to get out of bed in the night (and after a happy holiday bottle of wine we usually do!) The build quality on the Hymer is fantastic and the insulation excellent. Think this is the only van we would change to as we are not at all unhappy with our current Charisma. Good luck!

Quote: Originally posted by David Klyne on 30/1/2006

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Andrew

If you want to by a German caravan why not just buy one. I have have 3 new UK vans over the past 17 years and not had any problems. UK vans are far better equipped than German vans (if purchased in Germany) they tend to cram far too many berths in and are generally much heavier so. You would be OK because you have a suitable beast to tow it with. They do have a reputation for being well built but I have also seen stories of damp in German vans - just in different places to UK vans. The trouble with just accepting what is said on the internet it that there are a few people out there who have lost all subjectivity on UK vans and rather that saying were disappointed with UK vans and decided to buy European they seem to take delight in running down UK made vans when the majority of UK van owners have no idea what they are talking about. Quite clearly most German manufacturers are not interested in the UK markets as all but a handfull refuse to make vans with the door on the UK side.

David

Having been a firm fan of Avondales for many years, owning three over the last 18 years I certainly fell out with the company over the problems encountered during  the last three years with my 2002 Avondale Eagle. I have listed the many problems in other threads so will not repeat now, but the final straw came in October last year when two large star-cracks appeared on the roof. I traded it in and ordered a Burstner S500TS. IT is German quality but designed for UK market. The door is on the correct side and apart from having to have fitted an extractor above the cooker and a TV aerial it has everything I want in a van.

Roll on March when I will be found towing my German van with a Swedish Volvo.

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Quote: Originally posted by carpyone on 01/2/2006

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I traded it in and ordered a Burstner S500TS. IT is German quality but designed for UK market. The door is on the correct side and apart from having to have fitted an extractor above the cooker and a TV aerial it has everything I want in a van.

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The Burstner 500TS is our current favourite.  I must, though, see if I can find a Geist LV555 before making a decision.  The Geist has the same layout & solid German construction (so I'm told) but is a bit longer.  

Has anyone seen a Geist?  Thoughts?