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Quote: Originally posted by mattbeck on 28/5/2010

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CARAVAN CENTRE DID ALL THE CHECKS AND SAID THAT IT WOULD BE NO PROBLEM BUT WE HAVE STARTED TO DO OUR OWN CHECKS TO BE ON THE SAFE SIDE AND NOW I AM GETTING WORRIED, HOPEFULLY FOR NO REASON BUT AM HEARING DIFFERENT THINGS THANKS

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Good for you.

Firstly a caravan dealer is concerned primarily in selling you the van.  If a dealer say off the top of his head, 'Yeh! You'll have no problem towing it with that', it can mean, 'Haven't got a clue, Mate'.  In the past I have experienced this and in the long term have ended up changing my car.  Secondly, it is you who will be driving the outfit and in the eyes of the law it is you who is held responsible.  If you are pulled up by the police, or worse still, have an accident because you are overweight (), it won't be the caravan dealer who gets the bill.

You are very wise to do your own checks. 

 right guys done some home work looked on my v5 c document and found my mass in service weight ( kerbweight) which is 1505 .

also the permissible max towable mass trailer braked is 1800

any  help now would be great and the mtplm is 1300

help  

I've just had a quick look at this again, and legally I think the whole thing is so vague/flexible.

There seems to be a good summary by Practical Caravan here: http://www.practicalcaravan.com/legal/index.html

The points are:

The Caravan Club, for example, advises that you should aim for a towed load that is no more than 85% of the car's kerb weight for stability and safety.

The CC advice is NEVER to tow above 100% of the car's kerbside weight.

N.B. The car manufacturer's specified maximum permissible towload is always the absolute towing limit regardless of any 85% or 100% weight ratio guideline. This is especially important in those cases where the manufacturer's figure is particularly low - in a few cases even below 85%.

The reality is that towing to a maximum of 100% kerbside weight of the car is advice and not the law.  To aim for 85% to ensure stability etc. is advice and not the law.

The car manufacturer's specified maximum permissable towload is stated as the absolute towing limit, but interestingly enough, it is questionable as to whether or not this is 'law'.

If you check out the department of transport website (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/requirementsfortrailers), it says:

In the case of light trailers, that is less than 3500kg maximum laden weight, there is not any specified relationship in UK law between the weight of the towing vehicle and the weight of the trailer.

For M1 category vehicles (motor vehicles used for the carriage of passengers and comprising not more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat) the maximum permissible trailer weight is quoted by the vehicle manufacturer. Alternatively, the vehicle manufacturer may provide a maximum gross train weight (the laden weight of the trailer plus the laden weight of the towing vehicle). If this is exceeded it is possible that the Courts or Insurance Companies may take the view that this constitutes a danger.

The last sentance is the one that questions the legality of the car manufacturer's maximum gross train weight or specified maximum permissable towload.

After saying all this, we are still wise to stick to the 85% Caravan Club recommendations, and by writing this I am not in any way encouraging a free-for-all.

I have to admit that I was really surprised to read the department of transport 'lack of decisiveness'.  After saying that, I would hate to be the one to be in a position to have to argue anything like this in court - there could be historical court rulings that come into play!!  Wow! 

I would be really interested to read people's comments.

Quote: Originally posted by mattbeck on 29/5/2010

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 right guys done some home work looked on my v5 c document and found my mass in service weight ( kerbweight) which is 1505 .

also the permissible max towable mass trailer braked is 1800

any  help now would be great and the mtplm is 1300

help  

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In view of the recommendation of the CC that 85% of the kerbside weight is thought to be stable, (and that your max towable is higher than the kerbweight), I personally would go for about  1279.25. (85%)

"kerbweight) which is 1505.................and the mtplm is 1300"

So that is an 86% match and you can keep to the recommended 85% by loading less than the maximum payload. Just a potentially tricky exercise to get it right.

DSB ...I would not necessarily agree that the whole thing is vague. There are recommendations which you can choose to follow and then there is the legal issue which is that the whole unit must not exceed the weight stated in the cars handbook and which you must follow.

The recommendation on 85% is a safety issue, continuously applied by the CC C&CC Dept of transport etc etc. It is even part of the Driving Test Theory exam so during that you have to support the 85% rule otherwise you may fail. The Police, should they stop you, start from the 85% principle and if you are over it the burden falls to the driver to satisfy the Police that the unit is not a danger before they let you proceed. If you are under or on the 85% figure there is no argument with the Police if they check. So the caravanner chooses, when loading the van, either to potentially have an argument if stopped, or not to.  

My own personal view is that if there is a recommendation put forward by all the professional bodies, supported by the Highway Code, then that is the one to follow. The problem that seems to arise is when someone wants a heavier van than their car will normally pull and does not, or cannot, go for a larger (more appropriate) car. There is then the tendency to look for the guidance that supports their objective rather than to stick to the recommended practice. Hey Ho.

I read on another message board a wonderful comment from someone who sought legal advice from the DVLA. It is not their job to give legal advice and when she did not get a response that she wanted her comment on the message board read......

"I am imune to prosecution on all points that I brough up as they were unable/refused to answer my questions."

Sadly It appears that she believed that that was the case.

Phil

spoke to the caravan center today they said i was at the 86 % like you said my pay load is 244 kg even if i packed the van with the stuff i need i would not reach the pay load limit .

how would i get to the 85% limit you said is it by removing certain goods for the caravan .

 thanks paul i will do that and i think it will put my mind at ease as well might be worring for nothing .

thanks

Quote: Originally posted by cwdc56768 on 29/5/2010

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DSB ...I would not necessarily agree that the whole thing is vague. There are recommendations which you can choose to follow and then there is the legal issue which is that the whole unit must not exceed the weight stated in the cars handbook and which you must follow.

The recommendation on 85% is a safety issue, continuously applied by the CC C&CC Dept of transport etc etc. It is even part of the Driving Test Theory exam so during that you have to support the 85% rule otherwise you may fail. The Police, should they stop you, start from the 85% principle and if you are over it the burden falls to the driver to satisfy the Police that the unit is not a danger before they let you proceed. If you are under or on the 85% figure there is no argument with the Police if they check. So the caravanner chooses, when loading the van, either to potentially have an argument if stopped, or not to.  

My own personal view is that if there is a recommendation put forward by all the professional bodies, supported by the Highway Code, then that is the one to follow. The problem that seems to arise is when someone wants a heavier van than their car will normally pull and does not, or cannot, go for a larger (more appropriate) car. There is then the tendency to look for the guidance that supports their objective rather than to stick to the recommended practice. Hey Ho.

I read on another message board a wonderful comment from someone who sought legal advice from the DVLA. It is not their job to give legal advice and when she did not get a response that she wanted her comment on the message board read......

"I am imune to prosecution on all points that I brough up as they were unable/refused to answer my questions."

Sadly It appears that she believed that that was the case.

Phil

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Hi Phil,

As I said in my post, I would never tow a vehicle at more than 85% of kerbside weight and would never recommend anyone to do it.  I tow a van with the MTPML of 1435kg with a vehicle where 85% of kw is more than 1800kg, and the maximum permitted towing is 3500kg.

According to the Department of Transport website (not the DVLA), for cars (that is M1 category vehicles) the maximum permissible trailer weight is quoted by the vehicle manufacturer or alternatively, the vehicle manufacturer may provide a maximum gross train weight.  If this is exceeded it is possible that the Courts or Insurance Companies may take the view that this constitutes a danger.  This is not my opinion, this is what they say.  Compare this with the highway code which is more specific saying, 'You should not tow a weight greater than that recommended by the manufacturer of your vehicle'.   This is what I refering to when I said that it was 'vague'.  According to one source you could 'theoretically at least' exceed the maximum permitted towing weight of the vehicle (but one would then assume that you would have to have a really good arguement that it was safe to do so - can't think of one off hand!) and another source says you can't.  This is really academic, because no-one ought to do it anyway!!  I just think we ought not to have vague statements that might be construed by some as an excuse to do it.

I have not ever been stopped by the police so I cannot comment from personal experience about your statement that "The Police, should they stop you, start from the 85% principle and if you are over it the burden falls to the driver to satisfy the Police that the unit is not a danger before they let you proceed".  However, I would have thought that because the 85% principle is not a point of law, it would be up to the Police to argue that the unit was a danger before stopping you from proceeding.  It is my opinion that that they could not use the 85% arguement on it's own to stop you proceeding as it is not illegal to do so.  After saying that, I accept that there may be another law allowing them to detain you, even something as simple as a light bulb not working.

I don't know of the evidence to support the statement that the Department of Transport apply the 85% advice although I'm sure they must support it.  It is not a rule as such, but as I said before it is certainly something that I feel ought not to be treated lightly.

I agree entirely with your paragraph that begins, 'My own personal view....'

I love your quote at the end, but don't you think that the refusal to answer questions is an inducation of the complexity of it all - no one wants to put their head on the block because someone somewhere is going to find something somewhere that gives you a different answer.

Anyway... I must stop.  More important things to do like pack for a few days away in a caravan towed by a car that I know can tow it and hopefully won't be in breach of any of the regulations.

Mr Plod in Bridlington yesterday checking cars. Seemed to be white vans they were checking for load. Well, one of the assistants pulling the vans over told me that they were checking load. Might have been more a case of checking what was in the load...nod nod...

Phil

Quote: Originally posted by cwdc56768 on 29/5/2010

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Mr Plod in Bridlington yesterday checking cars. Seemed to be white vans they were checking for load. Well, one of the assistants pulling the vans over told me that they were checking load. Might have been more a case of checking what was in the load...nod nod...

Phil

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We were in front of a white van coming back from France one year.  We came under the tunnel but were stuck under for an hour and a half because of a points failure.  Got out the car for a wander and the chap in the white van said, words to the effect 'The car tax 'll be up before we get back'.  I just said jokingly, looking at his van, 'Nevermind, at least we'll be able to have a party!!' 

Now I really must do the packing!!

it gets complicated when you put in the driving livence laws. . a b+e licence can allow a vehicle up to 3,500kg to tow any weight trailer so long as the train weight isnt broken .its possible for a 3,500kg gvw iveco pickup. weighing 2,000kg unladen to pull a train of 8,700kg.thats over 4 times the kerb weight of the towing vehicle so work that one out.

if it was a 4.5ton pickup driven on a c1+e it could only tow up to a train weight of 8,259kg.