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 Topic: Caravan stability ( Topic Closed)
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29/3/2016 at 5:04pm
Location: Hampshire
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Quote: Originally posted by JohnMW on 29/3/2016
Hi
Who in there wisdom rubber stamped a device that slows a combination down without warning and in some instances, when it hits a bump in the road?
On that point does the engine transmission fault power reduction feature most cars have, and the dynamic stability controls both which result in slowing a vehicle also flash warnings to vehicles behind? I don't know or have witnessed. I know the engine shut down I had when towing and overtaking lorries caused at least me a lot of distress!
I thought the generally accepted rule was not to be following too close, and warning lights were but an aid.
If the criticism here is addressed at the ATC type system, then the slowing if correctly set up is just minimal and the braking limited to the trailer.
Then of course steering clear of instability by the differential use of the van's brakes as you are claiming must also yield some reduction in trailer speed; does that set off rear end warnings. That warning surely must pull in the use electrics?
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29/3/2016 at 5:15pm
Location: Hampshire
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To answer your real quest, I feel that investing in a nicely presented "You tube" featuring some impressive life saving responses from your unit, and fired at all and sundry could awaken interest.
Being involved with patents, they are IMO never going to be a viable route for an individual or even any organisation without very very deep pockets. Here even with protection there can't be enough money in the device to ever warrant patents in every applicable country. So easy often to design round them or ignore them.
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29/3/2016 at 5:43pm
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Do we even need another 'safety device', particularly one that sounds as if it needs maintenance & adjustment? Alko sells their stabilisers by ensuring they are fitted as standard on most caravans, how many of us faffed about with blade stabilisers yrs ago? Not that many.
It's not really important how well it works, it's whether users believe it will work. The only way the op's device will come into general use is if he can interest Al-ko & BPW who between them supply chassis for all mass market caravan makes.
If it's fitted as standard to new caravans then users will be convinced. Whether in the death it was worth fitting will always be a subject for discussion but any of these safety devices are mostly about marketing.
The best safety device is the caravanner who understands how to match car to caravan, how to load it & how to drive it.
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29/3/2016 at 6:14pm
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Hi JTQI
I welcome your input - very good for me to sit up and listen. You are correct about the warning issue and I do know the ATC braking is a mild on/off application and this is one of my points it is too slow to counter any serious sway and any braking by a trailer alone is dubious on stability issues - most competent drivers do cope with this without any help from devices - there are exceptions I have operated fleets of HGVs for 20 years and consider myself one of the most aware but I have had some scary moments I would not want again with caravans.
The warning lights - well you said it, it causes problems when other systems fire off too.
If you understand principles then I'll try to explain without using maths for the benefit of others. If you consider that when a sway occurs the inner wheel (where the angle to the tow vehicle decreases)speeds up the outer slows down a tad, if you apply a slight braking effort to the one that speeds up then the average speed of the van stays constant as that wheel slows down therefore no change in the speed of the combination. I'm sure you can work that one out now - also note that the sway in this case is in very small increments since the senses immediately stop it.
I'm glad you concur with me on the patent issue. Also
I am almost there with a YouTube video and details of how to purchase plans for DIY application if I get no luck with the majors. I'm off to France again this summer and will try to get some interesting close ups of the device in action - I use cameras that log g forces and save a record as and when lateral forces are applied to the van. They also record wheel amplitude and shock absorber actions.
Regards
john
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29/3/2016 at 6:36pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Opensauce on 29/3/2016
Do we even need another 'safety device', particularly one that sounds as if it needs maintenance & adjustment? Alko sells their stabilisers by ensuring they are fitted as standard on most caravans, how many of us faffed about with blade stabilisers yrs ago? Not that many.
It's not really important how well it works, it's whether users believe it will work. The only way the op's device will come into general use is if he can interest Al-ko & BPW who between them supply chassis for all mass market caravan makes.
If it's fitted as standard to new caravans then users will be convinced. Whether in the death it was worth fitting will always be a subject for discussion but any of these safety devices are mostly about marketing.
The best safety device is the caravanner who understands how to match car to caravan, how to load it & how to drive it.
Hi No one forces you to do anything but if you wish to avoid This http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/freeway-jack-knife-shatters-caravan/story-e6freomx-1225983803724 then think again. On my device there is no fiddling with friction devices or electronic setups
just general checks like any vehicle must have. If you can hitch up a trailer that's all you need to do. Incidentally ALKO have just introduced a new self adjusting brake unit - I will be getting a set of these for sure.
Trying to get this noticed by ALKO etc is why I am putting it on here. I would like you and others to shout at them - I'm trying to stir them up but they are fast asleep.
Regards
John
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29/3/2016 at 7:15pm
Location: Hampshire
Outfit: Hymer Nova S
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Was the Australian incident with or without ATC etc?
The jack-knife and flipping of the 4 X 4 I don't doubt were the outcome of allowing a yaw instability to generate so with it the forces involved.
The ATC [etc] despite its simplicity is IMO very effective at checking yaw instability. It only needs to detect one cycle of enough amplitude to be within its threshold to act; the criticism normally levelled at it is being too early at intervening, not waiting too long.
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29/3/2016 at 7:21pm
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The technical details don't matter John. Most caravanners will not understand them. All they need is convincing that it will work & I doubt a link to an incident on 'tother side of the world will do that any more than driving past a caravan accident on a UK motorway. Nobody thinks it will happen to them, yes?
Only when it is fitted as standard to their new caravan will they be convinced. Will it save them in an accident? Not even you know that John because you do not know the nature of the accident it may or may not save them from.
Al-ko are not asleep, if they did not know their business they would not be supplying chassis to most of the volume caravan producers. If they think your device will increase their profits then they will fit it. Now you need to convince them it will & you will be making money because this will only succeed if it is fitted as OE to new caravans.
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29/3/2016 at 7:39pm
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Hi Opensource
I totally agree with what you say - do you have any suggestions that will accomplish this. So why do you think they have not asked to see what I'm ranting on about in the interests of giving them an advantage and at the same time making lots of money and prestige in the process - it eludes me.
Just for your information I have been in an Engineer in both the automotive and transport industry all my working life and I can tell you they relied on us for a stream of feed back to keep them abreast of how their products perform and if applicable what we suggest would be a solution - then they get to work and produce what's known as recalls and modifications.
When they are asleep they don't listen and all too often it ends up with fatalities and the authorities wake them up. It's when they think money is more important than lives.
John
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29/3/2016 at 7:49pm
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Quote: Originally posted by JohnMW on 29/3/2016
Hi Opensource
I totally agree with what you say - do you have any suggestions that will accomplish this. So why do you think they have not asked to see what I'm ranting on about in the interests of giving them an advantage and at the same time making lots of money and prestige in the process - it eludes me.
Just for your information I have been in an Engineer in both the automotive and transport industry all my working life and I can tell you they relied on us for a stream of feed back to keep them abreast of how their products perform and if applicable what we suggest would be a solution - then they get to work and produce what's known as recalls and modifications.
When they are asleep they don't listen and all too often it ends up with fatalities and the authorities wake them up. It's when they think money is more important than lives. Further - it matters not that it is on the other side of the world, I could have picked one here in the UK. I have listened to hundreds of accounts of this type of accident and almost all are due to caravan instability and the ability of users to counter what's going on - so I can state I do know what caused the jackknife or the snake even if I could not say what triggered it- there is a difference.
John
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29/3/2016 at 7:52pm
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Sorry about the duplication I clicked the wrong button
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29/3/2016 at 8:15pm
Location: West Sussex
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John,
Rather awkward post to a reply to really as without being able to ask about the solution it is hard to not get involved in opinion as opposed to fact. I can thing of a couple of mechanical solutions to the problems you describe that may work based on the rather simplistic brake distribution arrangement on trailers.
My one question would be: How will an ignorant and inexperienced driver know if the device is being triggered? i.e. if the trailer is badly loaded but the system is being triggered, will the driver realise? Appreciate there is a certain amount of balancing to do between actuation and over actuation.
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29/3/2016 at 8:28pm
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HI T
I tried to confirm that they are fitted as standard but have not been able to yet.
But on the other issue I have heard many sources say they switch them off for many reasons so one could argue that's why some do end up all over the motorway.
However, if you have one fitted you can keep us informed if you experience anything out of order - I'm sure sure you know what your doing. It still does need a good yaw before it will trigger and then relies on everything to work thereafter - fuse not blowing, actuator not seizing, electronic chips not corrupting etc. Then there is the ability for it to slow the 3.5 tonne with one or two lightweight trailing axles. Much more logical to stop it in the first place. I have studied the arguments in detail and am not convinced it is worth the money for what it does - I'm not saying it does not do what they say it will that would be wrong because it does exactly what they say - slow the combination down until the offending action ceases. I repeat how about stopping it in the first place.
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29/3/2016 at 8:54pm
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Hi Alex,
Good question - With those electronic devices they rely on a test that displays OK or Not and you can check running results to see how many times a trigger was initiated albeit after the events.
With my Differential system it is not necessary just as it is not necessary to always check if your overrun is working before you connect. The mechanism is always visible and if one would want check it is physically working this is like a handshake but I'm not telling you anymore at this stage. I have had loggers fitted to mine because I needed to do computations on stresses,timings and angular calculations but anyone else would never need these functions - if you ever get chance to see it you would be amazed.
Just pre-empting some other questions - it does not look like some Heath Robinson concoction of bells whistles and steam. It is mostly hidden from view and is silky smooth in operation with precision parts that do not need lubrication - it does in fact make the ALKO overrun look a bit shabby I'm think of improving that but for now I make no alterations to the existing setup. NB Drilling etc of these chassis etc is forbidden because of the strict load calculations involved.
John
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29/3/2016 at 9:22pm
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Hi all
I need to just state that in my case I still use the ALKO friction hitch - belt and braces. On my van I carry two electric bikes less the batteries on a witter cycle carrier fitted to the REAR of my van and for the three years touring around the South of France around the Pyrenees and beyond Have never encountered any instability issues whilst using my Differential device I still ensure that the van is weighed on every trip using a mobile weight bar. More importantly I load the car up first to the maximum it can take, then ensure that the nose weight is up to the maximum it can take - the rest is spread evenly along the van floor. It has gone through High winds in mountains, fast HGVs, on Autoroutes and the occasional avoidance
situation - at maximum speeds allowed. This is testament to the reliability and assurance of the device for me - of course I would say that wouldn't I.
Regards
John
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29/3/2016 at 11:14pm
Location: Bradford West Yorkshire
Outfit: Ssangyong Korando & Sprite Major 6TD
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John,
You're understandably vague on exactly what this is and how it works, so I've no concept either of how much it weighs? Whilst being low down it isn't going to affect stability, I might be more concerned if it took a big slide out of the payload!
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30/3/2016 at 1:01am
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Hi Paul,
The components I weighed came in at 4KG and for us this presents no problem with payload. I built the parts with finely polished Stainless Steel - It could be made lighter if that was ever going to be a problem for some but I build for quality and endurance not price or some slight loss of payload on the van. Since I'm preparing it for any Type approval it may affect my or others ability to skimp on this issue.
What price life and limb?
Regards & thanks for your question.
John
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