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Francais

20/1/2021 at 8:41pm
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Yep trog100, the spec on your battery is very good, 80amp discharge matches your inverter perfectly.

And the max charge rate is very good as well, I would look at getting a 50amp or 30amp LiFeP04 charger, which would soon get it back upto 100% from zero, in maybe 2 hours max.

When you consider that a decent AGM, GEL or Carbon LA battery is around £300 it makes a £500 LiFeP04 a no brainer, and more folk are starting to cotton on to this.

But as others have said, prices still need to come down to around £250 for 100Ah, which I am sure they will in the not to distant future.

Post last edited on 20/01/2021 20:52:10

trog100

20/1/2021 at 8:49pm
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i never went lithium for economical reasons i went lithium because lithium does things that lead acid cant do..

everything else has gone lithium.. larger 12 volt batteries are simply lagging behind..

weight saving was the big factor in my decision to go lithium in my caravan.. 200 amps of usable power in lead acid form would be way beyond what my caravan could carry..

lead acid is fine if weight isnt a problem.. for me it was..

its also possible to mix the two.. lead acid and lithium will mix.. its not commonly known but some people are doing this.. they havnt chucked there large lead acid battery banks away just added a smaller lithium bank to their lead acid one..

it works like this.. the lead acid part will happily float at around 13.8 volts.. the lithium part will do all the work and keep the lead acid part at float.. the only time the lead acid part will do anything is when the lithium part runs down.. kind of a lead acid back up with the lithium doing all the work..

trog

Post last edited on 20/01/2021 21:00:32

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trog100

21/1/2021 at 12:05am
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Quote: Originally posted by Francais on 20/1/2021
Yep trog100, the spec on your battery is very good, 80amp discharge matches your inverter perfectly.

And the max charge rate is very good as well, I would look at getting a 50amp or 30amp LiFeP04 charger, which would soon get it back upto 100% from zero, in maybe 2 hours max.

When you consider that a decent AGM, GEL or Carbon LA battery is around £300 it makes a £500 LiFeP04 a no brainer, and more folk are starting to cotton on to this.

But as others have said, prices still need to come down to around £250 for 100Ah, which I am sure they will in the not to distant future.

Post last edited on 20/01/2021 20:52:10

my two 100 ah lithium batteries in parallel should give me a max discharge rate of 200 amps and a max charge rate way above anything i can think of..

but the idea isnt to run them down and charge them back up quickly.. its more to maintain an average charge rate between 60 and 80% depending on the sun.. in summer time my 300 watts of solar panels should do this.. this is as yet untested until the summer actually arrives.. :)

20 amps from the DC to DC charger truck alternator would be a back up and so would shore power.. you can get 60 amp DC to DC chargers but one that size would need some pretty hefty cable between the tow vehicle battery and the van battery.. 20 amps should be enough and i have had to run a new cable from the van battery and truck battery.. i have fitted a separate grey plug and wiring just for the 20 amp DC charging the normal wiring would not be enough..

a more powerful mains charger (50 amps or so) is something i havnt investigated yet.. i may do this in the future.. but i dont think i will need one..

what a DC to DC charger does is to take the lower voltage (after the long cable run) coming from the truck alternator/battery (it takes 8 to 16 volts input) and boosts it to whatever voltage is needed to put a controlled 20 amps into the van battery.. when the van battery is fully charged it switches off..

trog

Post last edited on 21/01/2021 00:27:36

Colin21

21/1/2021 at 12:11pm
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It does depend very much on what you want and what you want to do with it. We have quite severe financial constraints, so can't get away as much as we would like, and when we do we need EHU for our fridge which is mains-only. Someone has swapped it at some point in our ancient caravan's life. For us the battery is mainly a back-up and to use our motor-movers, both on site and at home when we get back.

What would probably be a good investment for some, would be a complete waste of money for someone like us. Nearly £500 for a battery would be absolutely pointless when we can get one that will do everything we need, and last as long as we are likely to need it, for around £100. Our previous caravan only cost us £500.

The one we have now only cost £1,100 too.

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trog100

21/1/2021 at 12:48pm
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it does all come down to what you want or need colin.. i wanted basic Independence of mains power hook ups..

it became very clear on my last years trip up to durness.. even after a lot of driving my single lead acid battery was used up after the first night.. i had to move to a shore power pitch..

the site i was originally heading for (firemore beach) was closed this site dosnt have any mains power at all..

my original 120 ah lead acid battery which i removed was actually down to about 60% of what it was when new.. lets say it was really a 65 ah battery..

i didnt plan my lithium solar powered set up.. i just added one battery and the rest followed from there as often happens with me..

incidentally my caravan cost me £1000 quid six years back.. i keep looking at newer vans but always end up thinking i am stuck with the one i have.. he he..

lead acid is fine for normal main stream sites with mains power.. most caravaners use such sites.. i tend not to..

if i had to sell my old van all the expensive lithium stuff would be removed to go in whatever i bought next.. i would remove it all and put a conventional lead acid battery back in..

trog

Francais

23/1/2021 at 6:06pm
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Seems that some LA chargers now have a setting for lithium leisure batteries, the “Norco Genius 10 U.K.” caught my eye, although at around £100 it does look a bit of decent kit, and makes me wonder if my “Aldi AutoXS MD19787” was maybe a little to cheap at £12.99 and of course is not suitable for lithium according to the manual.

You can pay big money for lithium chargers that can do 30 amp and more, but the Norco at 10 amp would probably be fine for most folk with a 100Ah LiFeP04 leisure battery, and I always think it’s good not to charge any battery to fast in any case.

trog100

24/1/2021 at 1:03am
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you dont need a special charger for lithium just for the various type of lead acid batteries..

the built in battery management system takes care of it all..

the so called "special" charger that came with my lithium batteries is just a laptop brick.. there is nothing special about it at all..

the built in charger in my van also charges the lithium batteries fine..

lithium dosnt need multi stage charging.. it just needs amps chucking at it until it reaches 14.4 volts then the BMS switches it off..

if i could pick up a mains charger at a reasonable price that chucked 50 amps or so at it i might buy one.. but so far i cant find anything..

my pair of batteries (200 ah) would happily take a 100 amp charge rate.. that would only be .5 C..

trog

Francais

24/1/2021 at 12:24pm
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Thanks trog, the manual that came with my Aldi charger states not suitable for Lithium batteries, I wonder if that relates to Lithium batteries that do not have a BMS.

I guess with chargers like the norco, the lithium setting just makes the charger give out 10 amp at 13.4v, and when the BMS in the battery sees that it is at full state off charge the BMS will simply disconnect itself from charging anymore, rather than have all the dancing around that a charger does when charging a LA battery, and finally going into float mode.

From what I can tell, all you really need for charging a lithium battery is a power supply that can give out 13.4v at a decent rate of amps, say anything above 30amps depending on the charging capacity of the lithium battery, or like in your case more than one battery in parallel will multiply the charging capacity.

I even have an old linear 14 amp power supply in the workshop that outputs 13.8v I was thinking of using that to charge a 100Ah LiFeP04 drop in replacement battery when I get one.

From what I understand so long as the power supply is not more than 14.6v then all should be OK for charging a lithium battery.

Colin21

24/1/2021 at 12:46pm
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A charger that can put out 50+ amps is going to be either a garage boost charger or an industrial one of some kind. Most accessory shops normally only stock chargers going up to about 12 amps or so.

It's a pity the company I worked for when I first left school centuries ago isn't still in business, as they would have been the people to get one from. They were a small firm that made custom-built battery chargers to spec. Normally one-offs built to order for various industrial purposes. They would build anything you wanted, any voltage, any amperage.

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Francais

24/1/2021 at 1:50pm
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Plenty off LiFeP04 chargers on Alibaba 50 amp units are around $100 although there are plenty of 20 and 30 amp models for even cheaper.

All seem to be rated at 14.6v which seems to be the nominal maximum voltage to avoid the battery BMS doing a disconnect, with drop in replacement LiFeP04 batteries.

“Progressive Dynamics” do a nice range of LiFeP04 chargers, around half a dozen models starting at $200 for the 20amp up to $300 for the 80 amp again all 14.6v being a U.S. firm they are for use on 110v ac power.

Can’t find much on U.K. eBay in the way of dedicated LiFeP04 chargers, which I thought was a bit strange.

trog100

24/1/2021 at 3:13pm
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the problem with charging lithium isnt how many amps the lithium battery will takes its how many amps the charger can stand putting out..

high voltage flows into low voltage.. a bit like water flowing downhill..

to get 14 volts into a battery more than 14 volts have to be chucked at it.. the higher the voltage chucked at it the more amps go in...

everything else being equal a lithium battery taken down to say 10 volts.. will take in more amps than one at say 12 volts.. the problem here is not over loading the charging device when the lithium battery is near flat.. this would be 10 volts or so..

the lithium battery can be anything in between 10 and 14 volts.. my DC to DC (alternator) charger handles this by limiting the charge current going into the battery to 20 amps max.. it dosnt care what voltage the battery being charged is at..

it does this to stop the car alternator from being damaged..

a high current mains lithium charger would have to do the same thing.. limit the max current going into the lithium battery.. this would be to protect the charger not the battery..

the easy (and common) way is not to have high current chargers..

for me it would be handy to be able to charge my lithium batteries in a couple of hours but the size and cost of such a charger would be prohibitive..

10 amps going in overnight overnight (if needed) will do me fine.. :)

one other thing.. a lithium battery (if its big enough) in a caravan dosnt need to be run flat or fully charged.. it will last longer if its mostly kept around 60% charged..

60% charged is around 13.1/2 volts.. well within the range of any common or garden lead acid charger..

trog

ps.. when the summer time arrives i am estimating my solar panels will keep my batteries somewhere near a 75% charge level.. i wont need any other means of charging..

Post last edited on 24/01/2021 15:23:41

Francais

24/1/2021 at 5:13pm
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Thanks for the heads up trog 100, you mentioned that a charger came with the Ultra Max battery, is that the 10 amp charger that you use, if so what Volts is it putting out.

I would agree that a 10amp charger is more than adequate for most folks needs, like you say even with a lithium battery it’s good not to run it down to such a low capacity only for the BMS to kick in and disconnect until a charge can go back in,

My usage would be for my portable battery box, which if using a 100Ah lithium battery would be down to around 50% after a weeks use, then just stick it on charge over the weekend ready for the next working week, my 120Ah SFLA seems to be coping with that way of working quite well, the battery box c/w 600 watt PSW inverter weighs 26.4kg so getting that down to say 15kg is my main aim, but I can wait until my current battery starts to fail or if there is a significant drop in price of lithium batteries in the next year or so,

trog100

24/1/2021 at 8:31pm
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the chargers they sent out with the ultra max 100 ah lithium batteries are rated..

input 240 volt 1.2 amps..

output 14.6 volt 10 amps..

they are just normal laptop bricks.. i would guess that under no load they would read 18 or so volts..

they claim a three hour battery charge which is total rubbish ten hours would be nearer the mark from flat.. they also say only use our special charger to charge these batteries..

the bottom line being these people are just ebay box shifters.. they dont really know what they are selling..

they weigh about half as much as the 120 ah lead acid battery i was using.. two of then weight about the same as one lead acid battery..

this isnt my intention but i recon i could go at least a week with no extra charging at all.. so in this respect they would suit your intended charge up once a week usage fine..

to be honest i dont see them getting much cheaper than what i paid.. due to covid supply chain problems i can only see such things going up.. the cost of container shipping from china has gone up through the roof recently..

trog

ps.. purely as a joke but given a 2000 cycle life.. your one cycle per week would be 2000 weeks.. or 40 years.. he he he..

Post last edited on 24/01/2021 20:58:56

Francais

24/1/2021 at 9:32pm
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Yep trog100, the £90 FSLA battery that I bought last year will be the last LA battery that I ever buy, at 60 any LiFeP04 that I buy should see me out, but to be fair even though the cells may last that long, I doubt that the BMS will, any capacitors in the circuit will have dried out and failed within ten years I would guess.

As for price of LiFeP04, I think prices are set to tumble in the next couple of years, and by 2023, I can see 100Ah costing around £250, but without a crystal ball who knows.

Thanks for the info, at 14.6v for your charger that is bang on, 10amps is fine for an overnight charge.

trog100

25/1/2021 at 12:05pm
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charging a big lithium battery is exactly the same as charging a laptop battery.. in fact the charging brick for my gaming laptop is bigger than the one that came with my 100 ah storage battery..

all the clever control stuff is built in the laptop or storage battery..

some modern laptops allow you to set the max battery charge level at 60%.. this is for people who mostly remain plugged into the mains.. its not good for a lithium battery to be kept fully charged all the time.. they will live longer kept around 60% or so..kind of the opposite to a lead acid battery..

i think the current covid situation is going to mess up the worlds supply chains quite badly.. some things will be in short supply and maybe even unobtainable.. prices are bound to rise..

larger items from china will be hit the worse.. try buying a new computer graphics card for example.. the only way to obtain one is to go on ebay and pay double the list price.. as i just did.. he he..

this is going to be the new normal.. i dont have a crystal ball but i do have a pretty good idea of whats going on.. :)

all i am gonna say is if you really want to buy a lithium storage battery it would be a good idea to buy it now..

but then again i could be wrong.. he he..

trog

Francais

25/1/2021 at 12:45pm
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Yep Trog100, funny you should mention computers, I have just taken delivery of a DEL Optiplex 790 system c/w DELL 22” monitor, it’s a tower unit with 1TB HD and i5 processor, keyboard and mouse included, the Tower and Monitor are refurbished but look as if new, all for £209 delivered I added my own ASDA £7 USB speakers.

OK it’s not a gamers system, so went for the embedded graphics, but it suits my needs, first computer that I have ever bought, my Son 35 gave it the once over and helped (did) set it up, he has said he is going to get one from the same seller for the money he says I have done OK for what I need.

Decent Graphic card’s are going for daft money, mostly due to all those nuts mining for Bitcoin.

COVID-19 is just a blip, and a feast for the media, things will soon be back to normal and production will soon ramp up again, I am certainly in no rush to splurge £500 on a 100Ah LiFeP04 leisure battery, so will be holding out for when they are £250 if my £90 120Ah SFLA battery can last that long.

But it’s good that we have early adopters like yourself, who are willing to pay top dollar, and pave the way for the rest of us, I had a mate who was the same, I remember him paying £1000 for his first Garmin Satnav.

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