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Do I take it then that the nw of the van ex works is above 100Kg? If that is the case it would seem that the dealer has, by implication, acknowledged that the van does not meet the spec as required by law.

You can't travel with gas in the back of a van. Gas has to be transported in a particular manner, and secure, in the style of a front locker - with gas outlets in case of gas escape.

Baileys argument on the mover is quite wrong. Some of its weight will transfer to the noseweight as indicated in posts above, but not anywhere near all of it. However, if they are correct then that means that your dealer breached the Supply of Goods and Servcies Act in fitting it. See my earlier post.

Forget Bailey, take issue with the dealer to provide you with a replacement Bailey or equivalent other model van if they do not have a Unicorn that matches the spec. If you pursue your legal rights with the wrong party you get no where.

Phil

Interesting what they said about the cabinet as on our manoeuvring course yesterday this was one of the issues discussed.  The instructor told us some caravan manufacturers weigh the caravan as it comes of the production line and therefore any optional extras come off the payload and aren't included in the unladen weight.  If this is true for Bailey and although it seems a ridiculous situation, but if you were to plonk a set of drawers in the front of your caravan post manufacture it would certainly affect your noseweight quite dramatically I would have thought.

certainly affect your noseweight quite dramatically I would have thought

Yes it would but if, by so doing, you can never achieve 100Kg or less nw, no matter how you load, then they should not offer it as an option. Further, if that is the case, the dealer should have so advised the OP as we may be back to the selling an unroadworthy van issue.

Any Valencia owners on here who can offer thier experiences on nw for the van? Surprised that we have not any comments...maybe they have never checked their nw!!!

Phil

Quote: Originally posted by cwdc56768 on 17/4/2011

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certainly affect your noseweight quite dramatically I would have thought

Yes it would but if, by so doing, you can never achieve 100Kg or less nw, no matter how you load, then they should not offer it as an option. Further, if that is the case, the dealer should have so advised the OP as we may be back to the selling an unroadworthy van issue.

Any Valencia owners on here who can offer thier experiences on nw for the van? Surprised that we have not any comments...maybe they have never checked their nw!!!

Phil

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Overloading

Just for anyone interested in the legals of towing whilst overloaded …………..

s41B of the Road Traffic Act 1988, which gives us the offence of “overloading”, only applies to goods vehicles and passenger carrying vehicles. Max fine £5000.

So, there is the potential for towing an overloaded caravan to be lawful (so long as you are within your max train weight).....but only up to a point.

The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (as amended) require that all vehicles and trailers, all their parts and accessories, and the weight, distribution, packing and adjustment of their loads, shall be such that no danger is caused, or likely to be caused, to any person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on the road. So, if you are “overloaded” you can, potentially, be charged with dangerous driving or driving without due care and attention (rather than being overloaded)evidenced by a breach of the Construction and Use Regs. NOTE the offence can be committed simply by there being a situation that may be “likely” to cause a danger rather than actually causing a danger.

Why might overloading be dangerous or "without due care" ? Well, exceeding the recommended maximum load for the vehicle and/or trailer/caravan will increase the risk of tyre or suspension failure, increase stopping distances and adversely affect vehicle handling and stability. Further, too much weight will overload the back of the towing vehicle, making the steering light and unsafe and causing the back to dip. This may mean that headlights may dazzle other drivers

The Highway Code, at Rule 98, stipulates that you must not overload your trailer. It then goes on to say that you should properly distribute the weight in your caravan with heavy items mainly over the axle(s) and ensure a downward load on the tow ball. Manufacturer’s recommended weight and tow ball load should not be exceeded. The Highway Code is not law, but failing to observe the code, while not in itself an offence, may be taken as evidence of “driving without due care”. . Potential for 3-9 penalty points and fine up to £5000

Each car has a Vehicle Identification Number plate (VIN plate). This includes all of the maximum weights that you can have whilst on the road e.g. max vehicle weight; max towing weight. It also has the maximum weight you can have on your rear axel. Add the weight of the gear you have loaded into the boot/rear well of the car and the nose weight and you may find that you have exceeded that rear axel weight. Especially if you assume that the nw is 100Kg but in reality it is 130Kg. Here, you also need to consider not just the actual nw but the weight from time to time arising due to the physical effects of downward movement as you travel. Some trailer manufacturers recommend that you work on double the actual nw figure to determine the axel weight during a journey. So you may be adding up to 260Kg to your rear axel using that kind of formula. If you look back you will see that the OP noticed quite a dip to the rear of his car. On a personal financial note you may be increasing your motoring costs through damage to your suspension.

Tyres are selected to suit the axle weight of the vehicle at a specified speed. In general, the faster you go the lower the load you should carry. The corollary being the higher the load the slower you should travel. So if you are overloaded and travelling at 55mph that may still be too fast and perhaps then liable to a charge of driving without due care and attention. 3-9 penalty points fine up to £5000. Why? On a check of your tyres it may be found that they are unsuitable for the load you have put on the axel. Road Vehicles (Construction and Use ) Regulations 1986 reg 24 specifies that you must use the correct tyre for the load being carried.  Failure to do so can lead to a fine of £2500 and 3 penalty points per tyre. Regulation 27 (b) also applies if  "the tyre is not so inflated as to make it fit for the use to which the motor vehicle or trailer is put". So there could be a potential for up to three offences, treble the fine and points!

In constructing caravans manufacturers must observe the C&U requirements regarding the standard of construction of components and the equipment used in the manufacture. Dealers have to sell vans that match their spec and which are fit for purpose.

Happy motoring

Phil

This, perhaps brings us back to a loading issue, rather than a noseweight problem. Anyway, if there is a case to argue and you have the usual caravan insurance, that should include legal cover. If you have that then why not run your case past your insurers lawers. If they consider that you have a case, then they may take the issue up under your insurance.

Phil

Hi

in as much as the load is in dispute e.g. they say its within limit and you state contra. there is also the time question as any claim in court will raise the question why so long a gap from Dec untill April ? and as you have stated you dont relish the idea of having a large 4x4 for ever.  they if they are aware of your statement will claim you have just decided what you bought is not for you and are attempting to return it, as bought in error.

I know thats sounds harsh and incorrect but its how the defense will be shown. also as you have stated its a 4 berth and you are a retired couple.

may I ask has a down grade swap been offered/mentioned by the dealer or yourself and would that be acceptable or is it a full refund and then a purchase from elsewhere desired from your part. ?  important points that will be thrown into the case when push comes to shove.

I have known cases where cars have been returned to dealers with faults then test driven by several experienced drivers and no fault is noticed and the customer has left stating he or she will get trade standards on the case. dealers just say fine do that, and nothing to my certain knowledge has happened yet from them. customer lets their case down by refusing an exchange vehicle and shows its a poss case of bought in error.

sorry if that sounds wrong but its how it is. the makers will just state they make units with a ex works weight and an allowance for allowed goods extra nothing to do with them how its loaded to keep within limits. their allowance for weight could be done with test weights spread about the unit and nothing like what is able to gain with awning, ploes, water, gas, mover and other items. that are added by others than themselves.

Quote: Originally posted by misterg on 17/4/2011

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I cant make my mind up whether Bailey customer service people are totally ignorant about anything to do with caravans or simply not prepared to face facts. When my dealer approached BAiley in my presence they firstly said the dealer's scales must be wrong,they then said I had chosen the drawers/table option at the front of the van therefore it was my problem as to deal with the extra n/ weight(there is no such option).I was told to put the gas bottles at the back of the van in the washroom space.When they were told that a mover was fitted they said that the majority of the mover's weight transferred to the noseweight.This is also utter nonesense.If they were correct the n/w would be 85 (or is it 87 ex works -who knows?) plus say only half the mover weight bringing it to well over 100.(87 plus 18 min =105) Are they saying dont fit a mover on their vans or you will exceed the 100 chassis limit? Post last edited on 17/04/2011 00:32:23

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Easy to see that you you might not have any confidence in Bailey!!! I think I may have mentioned earlier that you need to load all the space you have in the van but the suggestion that gas bottles be put at the back in the washroom is both stupid and irresponsible. Even if you ignore the the weight how on earth would you secure them?

Have you considered putting the mover at the rear of the wheels? This can be done with most movers although unless the dealer does it as a gesture of goodwill it would mean you paying extra for only a marginal benefit.

David