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Topic: Noseweight confusion

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Jo n Jon

17/1/2017 at 7:37pm
Location: Liverpool
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Hi Humber wolf,

I measured to the mid point of towball today. Car unladen and no caravan and it measured 41cm so is dropping 6cm with an unladen caravan attached (other than 1x calor lite gas bottle. ) We have even swapped the front drawer unit between sofas for wrap around cushions. Haven't been able to actually measure noseweight yet as drive very sloping and live on small bendy cul de sac. Did plan to measure it when we arrived at dealers on sat (it's gone in for a few repairs) as their forecourt is flat but got rushed off and didnt get a chance. Perhaps will be able to when collecting but if it is empty surely the noseweight is fine.

Towbar is a witter btw. We have had all brackets lifted as high as possible on it and bolts tightened which gave a couple more cm height.

Will ask mechanic if suspension is broken.

Thanks
Jo

HumberWolf

17/1/2017 at 8:14pm
Location: North Lincolnshire
Outfit: Elddis Xplore 495

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41cm unladen is quite low compared to some bars but not unusual. However a 6cm drop is excessive and suggests something wrong with the suspension; my estate drops by 2cm with 70kg noseweight and the Passat has a higher limit.

The noseweights of empty caravans can vary considerably, some even exceeding 100kg. I would try and get it around 75kg and see what effect this has on your suspension, which I don't think should drop more than 25mm. Even if this is right your van will still tow nose down, as drawbar height on modern vans is about 44cm.

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marg6

17/1/2017 at 8:28pm
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41 cms in about right actually, they recommend it be 17 inches which is just over 43 cm.

what car are you towing with?

Baileyjake

17/1/2017 at 9:51pm
Location: West Midlands
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I haven't measured it but I am sure my Outlander drops more than 20mm when the caravan is hitched and that's with spring assisters. With the assisters it sits higher solo than it did. Having taken the coil springs off to fit the assisters and having had my car checked out by the Mitsubishi dealers I can tell you my suspension isn't broken. There are so many experts in caravan forums who delight in diagnosing your outfit is wrong. The OP has a Passat and as I said before I know a guy with a Passat that drops low with a caravan hitched. Likewise I know another Outlander owner who is happy to tow with it dragging its arse on the ground when towing.

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goron

17/1/2017 at 10:04pm
Location: plymouth
Outfit: transit luton ABI Transtar

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hi buddy the way to get a reasonable nose weight is to take the bathroom scales out to the caravan with a bulk of wood using your jocky wheel raise the tow bar to the approx height of the tow hook place the scales on the ground and the timber to fit under the front of the a frame you may have to saw to fit snug lower the caravan on to the timber and you will have the nose weight on the scales hope this helps and enjoy 2017

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marg6

17/1/2017 at 10:06pm
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EC Directive 94/20/EC specifies that the centre of a tow ball should be between 350mm and 420mm (13.8-16.6") from the ground when the vehicle is laden to maximum weight. The ball should drop no more than about 25mm (approx. 1") when the caravan is hitched.

Baileyjake

18/1/2017 at 11:42am
Location: West Midlands
Outfit: Coachman Amara 570 6 + Shogun SG4

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EC Directive 94/20/EC states:

Class B coupling heads are permitted for trailers with a maximum mass of 3.5 tonnes. The
coupling head shall be fitted so that the centre line of the spherical area into which the
coupling ball
fits is 430
+
35mm (trailer laden). It shall be possible for the coupling heads to
operate freely with
in
the free space of the coupling ball

where does it mention the ball should not drop more than 25mm when the caravan is hitched? if the car sits at 415mm ((430-35)+20) before hitching then drops 25mm then maybe this is true.

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marg6

18/1/2017 at 12:47pm
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Baileyjake - if you read the full thing I posted it says clearly " The ball should drop no more than about 25mm (approx. 1") when the caravan is hitched. "

Baileyjake

18/1/2017 at 1:14pm
Location: West Midlands
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ok, i copied and pasted from this:

https://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services-(1)/Certification/1--Automotive-files/Couplings.aspx

theres no mention of a maximum sag of 25mm.

are you telling me your car sags no more than 25mm when you have the maximum hitch weight on it? or are they referring to deflection in the coupling?

like i said i havent measured it but i am quite sure that if i sat on my cars boot lip it would sink more than 25mm with my weight on it. and if it does what then?

does my car not conform to EC Directive 94/20/EC.

what outfit do you have Marg6? how much does it deflect with the max hitch load on it?

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marg6

18/1/2017 at 1:27pm
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its referring to the maximum sag, and yes my car doesn't drop anywhere near that, even with 100kg noseweight on it!

if it does sag then you have a problem, it needs stronger springs or the weight adjusting in either the car or the caravan

marg6

18/1/2017 at 1:41pm
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for your info Baileyjake my caravans noseweight should actually be 125kgs however the drawbar is rated upto 100kgs, the car is rated for 150kgs as is the towbar/ball

Baileyjake

18/1/2017 at 7:18pm
Location: West Midlands
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Presumably you have a pickup truck or a landrover with that kind of max load. Are you saying though that us mere mortals with regular cars are in the wrong? My car has extra coil springs to stiffen up the standard suspension and I recon it still sags more than 25mm. I am just being honest. Anyone else got an opinion? I recon if the suspension was so stiff it only travelled 25mm I would have a very harsh ride. Additionally my car has a limit switch on the radius arm. Presumably it gives a warning if the suspension sags more than normal.

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marg6

18/1/2017 at 7:39pm
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baileyjake my car is not a pickup or a landrover, it is however a 4x4, but we did tow previously with a "normal" car, and again the weight of the caravan on the back never had the effect you are saying about, yes it lowered a tiny bita inch or so max.

oh and no our car doesn't give a harsh ride at all, in fact its very comfortable and you can drink a coffee without wearing it

as for a warning? surely when your steering goes light then that's a big sign you have too much weight on the back of the car? that reminds me of being in great Yarmouth a few years back and this old couple arrived, the back end of the car was on the floor and the bonnet was so high up you could see the suspension on the front wheels and the guy was only a little thing and peering over the top of the steering wheel, we got chatting and he refused to listen that there was anything wrong, in the end I just asked him what day he was leaving and which direction, so we could arrange the opposite way so as not to get held up with the police and ambulance for him

Baileyjake

18/1/2017 at 11:17pm
Location: West Midlands
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i think there is some confusion here, an inch or so is 25.4mm.

my car actually sits level with 85kg on the tow bar but the rear end is higher than that before before the load is applied, it sits nose down normally. i have driven 300miles in a day towing my caravan, with bikes on the tail gate and a roof box with the awning and inflatable boat in it. i could still see over the bonnet and the steering didnt feel light.

i dont see any rules that say a car cant 'sag' under the load of the tow bar only that it must be a minimum height and if it is above that when the trailer is hitched then it must be ok. i fitted spring assisters because my car didnt look healthy with my caravan hitched.

i think though its a bit of a sweeping statement to say my car or others cars must be defective because it did sag. my car only had 15k miles on it when i fitted the tow bar. the springs are intact the dampers are intact, i know because i took it apart to fit the spring assisters, you know being a mechanical engineer and all

cars are horses for courses, whats good for a comfortable ride on the motorway may not necessarily be best for loading 400mm behind the rear axle.

your car may have air suspension for all i know which compensates for the load.

i recon if i stood on the bumper of our works nissan Navarra the rear would drop a little with my 98kg on it. maybe not 25mm but 25mm is not much travel for suspension.

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marg6

19/1/2017 at 12:34am
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nope no air suspension its a god old fashioned tug!

HumberWolf

19/1/2017 at 9:16am
Location: North Lincolnshire
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Baileyjake/marg6

Having followed your posts, I had an 'anorak' moment and found a series of 2014 towing tests where cars were loaded to their maximum nose weight and the towball drop was recorded. Most of the cars on test dropped by between 1 inch and 2.5 ins.(25mm and 60mm approx.), although there were a few considerably outside this range eg. Peugeot 308 estate 90mm. and some that barely dropped eg. Jaguar XF Sportbrake 12mm.

The Mitsubishi results were as follows:
Shogun (135kg) 40mm, Outlander Di-D (100kg) 60mm,
Outlander PHEV (70kg) 30mm

I checked my own car and found my TowTrust towbar was nearly 20mm higher than the Witter of my previous car, on which I had based the drop in my original post. The drop is actually therefore nearer 40mm.

Where does this leave Jo and his Passat? I couldn't find the results for a Passat, but the Golf Estate dropped nearly 60mm, which was the same as his car. If his suspension is OK and he checks his nose weight, spring assisters appear to be his only option.

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