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Subject Topic: Opinions on new caravan structure
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03/8/2014 at 10:43am
 Location: north wales
 Outfit: Sprite Quattro FB
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I think the appeal of the original Japanese imported cars was the fact that a lot of features were included in the competitive price. All models had 5 gears and stereos. It was a few years later that it was discovered that some are right rust buckets. The mechanicals were reliable though.


03/8/2014 at 10:54am
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Quote: Originally posted by Mike_Person on 03/8/2014
Why do you keep glancing in the mirror ?





I like to see beautiful things.



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I glanced in the mirror, and it was love at first sight...


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03/8/2014 at 11:16am
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Quote: Originally posted by brianconwy on 03/8/2014

The main problems with caravans is the body construction, which until recently has used methods that date back to the first caravans and wood which is not a material used in many road vehicles.




Well, I'm old enough to remember the introduction of bonded construction - caravan dealers used to have display sample of wall construction, and were trained to give you chapter and verse on this amazing new method, and how it would revolutionise the caravan industry.

Which it did - but perhaps not in the way they meant. Leaks became much harder to spot (due to the vinyl wall covering) and subsequently much more difficult to repair.

However, the problem wasn't inherent in the bonded walls, etc, but in the careless way that joints were sealed.

It's worth remembering that German caravans enjoy an excellent reputation, and they are also bonded construction one can assume that their superiority is down to greater care taken to construct them.

Bailey made a big step forward with Alutech (we own one) but it was a change that was probably forced on them due to the huge numbers of their previous vans leaking and rotting within warranty periods.

Even now, with all the advantages of Alutech, many water ingress problems are being reported due to insufficient (or even a total lack) of sealant, particularly at the body/floor joints

That is simply inexcusable - and is indicative of the low standards of workmanship that Bailey appear to consider acceptable.

Exactly the same comments could aptly to Swift and Elddis, btw.

So, yes! - let's have a robot to apply the sealant. It won't get fed up, it won't be too idle to put the correct amount on, it won't miss bits, and it won't send the caravan on to the next production stage, knowing that the thing is flawed.






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I glanced in the mirror, and it was love at first sight...


03/8/2014 at 6:53pm
 Location:  Whitchurch shrops
 Outfit: Swift conqueror 480
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Well after having my first ever bailey and putting up with it leaking and being repaired.
I want to get rid of it but

The point of my post was that they are all now the same . The same structure , the same shape and I think they will all have the same problems . Even the coachman which I thought and hoped was different .
I am looking at older style vans but the financial loss would be enormous . I was hoping bailey might compensate me in some way .


03/8/2014 at 9:22pm
 Location: None Entered
 Outfit: Bailey Olympus & Tiguan 4-Motion
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Ouch! - when you said 'leaking Bailey', I assumed it was an older one.

Then I twigged that 'Rimini' is an Alutech.

I can understand how disappointed you feel - where did it leak, lockers?

For all that, you could jump out of the frying pan and into the proverbial fire.

We bought an Alutech precisely because there is no wood in structure to rot - I know that leaves the floor, but it's still an awful lot less to worry about.

It must be pretty bad for you get want rid of it?

Swift have stolen the lead with the composite floor models - no wood in the van at all. Sadly, they've reserved what should be the norm for every caravan for the very top end of the market.

It can only be a matter of time before Bailey respond with their own plastic floor - but that will probably be for the high-end vans as well.

If yours has been fixed/is going to be fixed, is it worth hanging on and seeing what 'non wood' models do appear?





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I glanced in the mirror, and it was love at first sight...


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03/8/2014 at 10:43pm
 Location:  Whitchurch shrops
 Outfit: Swift conqueror 480
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This was not a small amount of water it was a lot . In the bathroom area I had carpet and mats down . They were soaking I took photos and sent them to bailey. I had to have it repaired . 2 months old.
My excellent service centre reassured me that they had fixed it and it wouldn't happen again . They removed every thing restuck or bonded or what ever you like to call it.
Then just before two years old the same happened not quite the same volume of water but still a lot it seeped under into the wardrobe area and under to the fixed side bed. .our service guy said after having it for at least 6 weeks that he found the problem it was the door to the toilet tank filler . He again changed it and resealed it . Why Dont I feel convinced that this won't happen again. This is just two problems . We had to have the interior doors changed because the edges were peeling or shredding . There have also been a few other minor issues.
Also as said I am finding it very unstable to tow. ( my car is fine ) and we load very carefully . Unless it does need more nose weight. I am very off bailey caravans . We had part exchanged a perfect 2 berth pastiche that was just 3 years old. Now having looked at all the new vans they all seem to be made the same using the same methods .
Another boring caravan problem after 25 years of caravanning we have never had a van like this one .


03/8/2014 at 11:09pm
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Nora..I can barely imagine how you feel after spending your hard earned money on your caravan only to experience the issues you have had!
My heart goes out to you..

We were were thinking of buying new and apart from the well documented issues with new damp vans, we were disappointed with the finish compared to our existing caravan and just walked away, happy with what we have and the more I read the more I realise we made the right decision.

Its easy for those that have been lucky to get a damp free new caravan to say "don't know what you are going on about, mine has been fine.." Shoe on the other foot springs to mind!

Hope you get your issues permanently fixed and are able at last to enjoy your caravan.


-------------
It is a wise man who has something to say.
It is a fool who has to say something.


04/8/2014 at 12:19am
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i have been looking at used eriba tourers recently..

you are looking at £5000 plus for a twenty year old one..

its partly down to the way they are made and partly down to the fact they dont "date"..

but they cost way more than a traditionally made UK van..

UK caravanners have their priorities wrong.. they want large and super light weight with every luxury imaginable as well..

the end result is a very flimsy structure filled with posh looking luxury..

the buyers will blame the makers but the makers only make what they think will sell.. i dont really know what this means but i attended an event this weekend.. "camping" was provided for.. lots of people lots of tents a few motor homes and one caravan.. mine..

trog   

Post last edited on 04/08/2014 00:25:08


04/8/2014 at 7:42am
 Location: north wales
 Outfit: Sprite Quattro FB
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Caravans could have been made better years ago. As you say, customers demand perceived luxury. This means that a lot of weight and expense goes on heavy fridges and wooden cabinets etc.


04/8/2014 at 8:44am
 Location: Teesside
 Outfit: Challenger Sport 524 + Volvo V90 D5
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Years ago car chassis wre wooden. Now, apart from Morgan, which are bought precisely because they are anachronisms, they're made from all sorts of hi-tech materials and the better for it.

Using wood and screws has to be the worst way to construct a vehicle that has to survive being towed around on all sorts of roads and then left outside in every weather. It really is a hangover by lazy manufacturers who are now being forced to "get real".

Manufacturers will never be able to afford the sort of research and development car manufacturers have (Mercedes spend over a million pounds a day) unless we start buying caravans in similar quantities. But they can address quality issues by workforce training, including making workers proud of their product. This is simple management.

They can also look to the Japanese, including Nissan just up the road from where I live. The poster who says Nissan quality is just about robots is I am afraid talking from the wrong orifice. Nissan is one of the largest employers in the region and takes untrained people and turns them into the skilled workers who have real pride in what they do.

What it also, crucially, does is empower every worker, no matter how junior or new, to say something's not up to proper quality and stop the whole production line. When they do this they are praised not punished because Nissan knows that somewhere in the future a customer will not receive a defective product and they'll continue to be loyal to the brand.

This is where caravan manufacturers can learn and improve. Up to recently customers have been powerless and alone. Now with internet and sites such as this we are a powerful voice. I for instance was about to buy a Bailey until I read about owners with leaks. So they lost a sale straight away.

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Camping Gear expands so as to fill the space available for its transportation.



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04/8/2014 at 8:57am
 Location: Teesside
 Outfit: Challenger Sport 524 + Volvo V90 D5
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Forgot to say, manufacturers also need to get to grips with lazy and slovenly dealers, most of whom, with honourable exceptions, are a disgrace and rely on restrictive practices that are literally illegal elsewhere.

I have a business and have three cars. When I bought them I got excellent deals because dealers fought for the business. Now I own them I can choose where to service them within reason and if I have a warranty issue any dealer will fix it.

Compare this with caravans: some dealers will fight for your business and give great deals (I mention Grantham Caravans here); most though will offer no discount or a paltry few quid while telling you that if you don't buy from them because they're local you can sing for your supper when it comes to servicing and repairs - even though they make more profit from these activities.

Disgraceful

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Camping Gear expands so as to fill the space available for its transportation.



04/8/2014 at 11:10am
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"Years ago car chassis wre wooden. Now, apart from Morgan, which are bought precisely because they are anachronisms, they're made from all sorts of hi-tech materials and the better for it."

modern cars dont have a"chassis".. a modern caravan has a very flimsy one simply to save weight.. its made of good old fashioned (cheap) steel..

bonding is just a fancy name for glueing..

back in WW11 they made a bonded aeroplane.. it was called a mosquito made of bonded plywood.. it was done for one simple reason cheap and easy to make plus it was light weight..

the mosquito did have a downside.. they could not put it into service in hot damp humid climates.. the "bonding"came unglued.. he he he

soft wood dosnt like damp it rots.. ash or oak dosnt rot..

screws aint the problem.. the problems is crappy cheap construction.. cheap wood and cheap labour.. and people trying to pull the cheap structures apart with monster awnings..

the bottom line is.. most people will not pay for smaller and more durable.. what they want is large flashy stuff and for as little money as possible..

people get what they want.. plus a ten year warranty that could bankrupt the people who have to back it up..

i aint knocking any of this but i do think the way modern caravans are made isnt based on durability.. its based on cheap flimsy flash..

i am an engineer and new to caravanning.. i am a wee bit surprised at just how flimsy these things are..

marine ply and decent timber plus good stainless screws (boats get wet) would solve all the problems.. but it would be heavier and cost more.. people would not pay for it.. people want the cheap flash and ten year promise.. technology has very little to do with it..

post 1997 driving law isnt helping the caravan industry.. its doing the opposite.. its forcing flimsy caravans into being..

trog



Post last edited on 04/08/2014 11:18:29


04/8/2014 at 2:26pm
 Location: Teesside
 Outfit:  Mitsubishi ASX4
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I think you also need to point the finger at the two major caravanning organisations. They have both failed to support the individual (ie the ones who pay for their services) instead they support the industry with all its faults. For instance it would have cost pennies to use treated timber in the frames years ago. No weight penalties etc.



04/8/2014 at 9:08pm
 Location: None Entered
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Quote: Originally posted by Hairywol on 04/8/2014
The poster who says Nissan quality is just about robots is I am afraid talking from the wrong orifice. Nissan is one of the largest employers in the region and takes untrained people and turns them into the skilled workers who have real pride in what they do.




Well, you're predictably loyal to the NE car industry - but let me ask you a simple question.

Let us suppose that these skilled and proud workers had no robot assistance whatsoever - and everything was down to their own skill and dedication.

Do you think that the quality of the vehicles they produce would still be as high as it is now?

More importantly, would you buy one?

You might say, 'Yes' - but, then, I'd think that you also had decided to talk through the 'wrong orifice'

Robot precision makes the cars what they are - the best that can be hoped for is that the the workers don't undo the good work when it comes to performing their own tasks.





-------------
I glanced in the mirror, and it was love at first sight...


04/8/2014 at 9:22pm
 Location: None Entered
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Quote: Originally posted by trog100 on 04/8/2014


i aint knocking any of this but i do think the way modern caravans are made isnt based on durability.. its based on cheap flimsy flash..



Post last edited on 04/08/2014 11:18:29






Absolutely - and it's been that way for over 30 years, ever since 'bonded construction' was foisted on the caravan buying public.

What's more, the manufacturers knew/know that their products are flimsy.

There is a video on You Tube featuring an interview with the MD of Bailey.   Discussing 'Alutech' (which is a big step forward, even if not a complete one) he makes an unguarded reference to the previous range of wood and screwed construction.   

Bailey, usually refer to that method as 'Classic' construction (a nice euphemism) but in the interview the MD refers to it, somewhat contemptuously, as 'glue & sticks'

Which is, of course, precisely what it was - although it would have been more accurate if he'd called it, "Entirely unseasoned 20mm sticks and cheap ferrous staples"

-------------
I glanced in the mirror, and it was love at first sight...


04/8/2014 at 11:39pm
 Location: north wales
 Outfit: Sprite Quattro FB
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Building a Bentley takes around 480 man hours. With that much human input they must be really rubbish. Its only in the last few years they used any robots at all. I have never owned one so I don't know how reliable they are.



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