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Subject Topic: Caravan stability (Topic Closed Topic Closed)
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03/11/2016 at 8:32pm
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Snake oil!!!!!!   Nothing else to be said

-------------
David

    

I've stood on Lego and didn't even cry!!


03/11/2016 at 8:53pm
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Quote: Originally posted by JTQU on 03/11/2016
Quote: Originally posted by JohnMW on 03/11/2016
Hi


1. loads on any vehicle should be placed evenly along the chassis with a bias on the front whether it be an Artic or a Caravan - I fulfill this with bikes on the back of the van by ensuring that there is the maximum allowed on the ball all within the max weight of the axles.




I don't buy your very first premise.

If the load can be carried undistributed then instead of spreading it, you can place it just far enough in front of the van's centre of yaw, typically the axle, to achieve the requisite noseweight.
With a centralised load, its monent of inertia is as low as that load can be, therefore the natural frequency to yawing is as high as it can be. Definitely higher, probably enough to be out of harms way, than if that mass was evenly distributed as you assert.

Load is definitly not best evenly distributed, its best from stability consideration located at the point it could swing about. Hence the often stated requirement to place heavy items as near the axle as possible and as low down as possible.




You do have a good point , however, if you take the dynamic load as you say you have an imbalanced beam so if you take the high wire artist analogy if he had one end heavier than the other he would lose control - this is the best analogy I can serve you with. When a force hits the side of the van it could be the front or the rear of the axle. If it was the front then the momentum would build and affect the tow car in such a way that it would require more effort to regain control - it would have no assisted balance from the rear. It would tend to drag the caravan as if the pendulum had been reversed - that is why it should be balanced evenly - of coarse if the force was exactly in the middle then it would make no difference either way. The tires would resist until the slip angles forced it out of line which is when the oscillations would commence. Were it a true pendulum without an interruption from an axle at mid point then putting the weight at varying points along the length from the fulcrum would certainly make your point valid. I think I got it - I'll check with my observation notes.
Just prior to sway the whole beam swings about the axle , this is the start of the sway if the beam is out of balance then the dynamics build to affect the tow car, if the tow car is not loaded correctly the frontal loaded van swings about the axle and can destabilize the tow car. if it is balanced the ends cancel out the side force which resists further oscillations. If the oscillations gain momentum the resistance from the tires either breaks down and they skip or slip, it then turns into an uncontrolled sway from the tow ball - all hell breaks lose. The answer is don't let it start by using a balanced beam and a control system.


Post last edited on 03/11/2016 21:26:51


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03/11/2016 at 9:00pm
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Quote: Originally posted by JohnMW on 03/11/2016
If was be so kind as to give out free of charge in great detail and publish it on YouTube how many of you would have the ability to build it and set it up? Perhaps a handful but in fact all the world would be in on it making lots of dosh on the back of my hard won knowledge, my hero is Mr Tesla, the world owes him so much it beggars belief he died a pauper.




And those 2 paragraphs confirm what I and others have been thinking and stating throughout the 9 pages of this thread!
I see someone else has used the term "snake oil" and I totally agree with them. Bluntly I suggest you either put-up some details or shut up.



Post last edited on 03/11/2016 21:04:11


03/11/2016 at 9:34pm
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Oh dear, some poor data there.

How does loading heavy items near the axle line put extra stress throughout the chassis?
Its not a 1000kg weight in a single small footprint. It will be the heavier items eg. folding camping table 4ft long and 8" wide 9kg, spare wheel (lay flat) 18kg. Everything else is light weight plastic containers etc.

Putting bikes high up on the rear though would be wrong. Imagine a pigeon landing on your tightrope walkers pole.
That would upset the balance somewhat.




03/11/2016 at 9:43pm
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Quote: Originally posted by LlaniDavis on 03/11/2016
Quote: Originally posted by JohnMW on 03/11/2016
If was be so kind as to give out free of charge in great detail and publish it on YouTube how many of you would have the ability to build it and set it up? Perhaps a handful but in fact all the world would be in on it making lots of dosh on the back of my hard won knowledge, my hero is Mr Tesla, the world owes him so much it beggars belief he died a pauper.

I did have some hope of success with this, however, if Mrs Teresa May or May not takes us out of the EU then it will have to be taken by some company out of the UK since we have no entrepreneurs left here and certainly no investment spirit/cash. The cost of living is about to go through the roof and no one has clue about tariffs.



And those 2 paragraphs confirm what I and others have been thinking and stating throughout the 9 pages of this thread!
I see someone else has used the term "snake oil" and I totally agree with them. Bluntly I suggest you either put-up some details or shut up.



Post last edited on 03/11/2016 21:04:11


How much more detail would you like - it seems to me like you throw your ball out of the pram if you cannot get the sweeties. I tell you what it does, what the concept is and how it was born and you want more. If you asked Apple or Samsung to disclose the secrets of their phones they would laugh their sides sore but you still use their phones - or maybe you still use letters or paintings on the wall.

Clearly this is not for you so stop looking if it upsets you so much.


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03/11/2016 at 10:03pm
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It's not a smartphone. It's a simple mechanical device as described by yourself. You have failed to interest any commercial venture so you have nothing to lose by posting full details & pictures.


03/11/2016 at 10:26pm
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Quick summary of the last 9 pages for those who don't wish to read them all:

OP:"I have a fantastic super-secret device that will revolutionise caravan stability".

Forum: "Tell us how it works."

OP: "No".


03/11/2016 at 10:41pm
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MMM - I tell you what I'll put a picture of the combination on here so you can knock it to bits, I'll show you the cover I use on the nose to keep prying eyes off when travelling. Actually you cannot see anything important because it's under the A frame fibre glass cover and when I take the important bit off it does not matter anyhow. I'll show you the bike carrier but please do not try fitting one without a control system. I cover the whole lot as much as possible and now some people may be on the watch for a UK caravan with bikes on I'll take it off before getting to site since I know I can still travel at 52 mph before any sway starts with my bikes on after that it's way too risky if I get hit by some truck vortice and the sway gets going. This is what charletons do, is it not I suppose a meanie like me deserves nothing less - and my wife keeps telling me at 70 I should wind down a little yet she still has me cycling 20 miles a day when we go into the mountains in France. I'll try some of that snake oil I have on the van.

Since I've had such horrible comments I will resist the temptation to post anymore after that - it's not nice being told to shut up - it is getting to heavy - I think I will get a Motorhome, take up sailing again or maybe flying or just maybe move to France and enjoy the sunshine.
John


03/11/2016 at 10:56pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Opensauce on 03/11/2016
It's not a smartphone. It's a simple mechanical device as described by yourself. You have failed to interest any commercial venture so you have nothing to lose by posting full details & pictures.



That's right I have nothing to lose - but you have so the answer you will have to stick it out until someone else finds a solution for you I will put this back on the shelf.

I will take this opportunity to thank others for the support and kind words of encouragement extended but to think I would helping people like the latter turns my stomach over - It has confirmed to me how much nastiness there is in the UK population when they don't get what they want.



04/11/2016 at 10:19am
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Assuming that the technology works, and there is yet no evidence available to us it does or does not, the benefit it brings over the established trailer stability systems is that it facilitates towing otherwise very poorly loaded caravans. An example of this being as in the OP's case hanging heavy electric bikes right on the rear end.

Now I would not dream of doing this as I know how destabilising it is, in the OP's case things are “safe” without intervention up to 52 mph, but even at that an disturbance is all that is needed to provoke a natural frequency driven oscillation. I simply can't do this, tow an inherently unstable unit, depending on some device to constrain it.
I accept all towed units can be inherently unstable but I want that point of instability way outside whatever speed or forced provocation I could realistically encounter; but on top of having a tame unit, I still want the likes of an ATC should everything stack against me.

Envisage a double bike rack dropping right off an overtaking vehicle as it swings back in front of you; that is one I know all about! The involuntary, or unthought out “Elk” manoeuvrer that is needed to be made would destabilise anything towed.

Now I can see that hanging two electric bikes on the rear is exceedingly expedient so is attractive, as there are little other options available. Mine would simply go in the Disco as they do now but many have not that option. So I could see the OP's product appealing to that niche and growing market, for takers who can come to terms with an add-on controlling what is otherwise a very dangerous animal. It is though a finite market and any retailer would have to think very carefully indeed about the litigation that could come should a unit doing that vital task “fail” to do so.


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04/11/2016 at 11:34am
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Hi
In my departure post I failed mention that we have servers on four continents and have handled many websites in our time and I have to say this site is one of the best we have come across in both content and technical features - my compliments to the operators and sincere thanks for allowing me to use the site. I hope the viewing figures have made it worthwhile for you,it has certainly brought in many interested enquirers for me.
Thank you very much.
John



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