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Subject Topic: Towing Limit of Car
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Personfreeatlast
24/4/2015 at 8:57pm
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I recently noticed the weights plate inside the gas locker of my caravan, and was curious to note that the MTPLM of the caravan (a Bailey) did not include the 58kg noseweight.

Cleaned the car the other day, (a rare occurrence mind you) and looked at the plated weights for the car, and was surprised to find the maximum permissible towing limit 70kg above what it stated in the car's handbook, and the V5 document.

Just how does noseweight fit into these figures?

I'm somewhat confused now.


Personbilly
25/4/2015 at 10:00am
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The gross weight or mtplm of a caravan is max allowable weight of just the caravan as weighed unhitched on weighbridge. If caravan is hitched to car then you can weigh entire outfit on weighbridge or you can drive outfit over an axle weigher. the sum total of the axle weights will be different to entire weight of outfit on weighbridge but none of these weights must exceed individual axle weights & entire weight must not exceed vehicle max train weight.

On the car plate under bonnet the max gross weight of car & gross train weight will be indicated. The max gross weight of car added to max tow weight may well be different to max gross train weight. All that matters is that none of those figures are exceeded.

'Noseweight' or towbar download limit is related to strength of towbar mounting points & has nothing to do with any other weight limit. Obviously if noseweight is exceeded by a large amount you could be overloading rear axle.

If you are stopped at a weight check, it is most likely axle weigher will be used & only requirement will be that no axle weight is exceeded which will also mean you are under your gross train weight limit. Obviously on a badly loaded outfit it would be possible for one axle weight to be exceeded but still be within gross train weight but you would still be nicked or at least required to redistribute load before being allowed to proceed.


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Personfreeatlast
25/4/2015 at 11:12am
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Quote: Originally posted by Billy x on 25/4/2015
The gross weight or mtplm of a caravan is max allowable weight of just the caravan as weighed unhitched on weighbridge.


No no no. That's just the point. The mtplm of my Bailey does NOT include hitch weight. The maximum weight of my caravan unhitched is the mtplm plus the hitch weight.


Personfreeatlast
25/4/2015 at 11:15am
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Quote: Originally posted by Billy x on 25/4/2015

On the car plate under bonnet the max gross weight of car & gross train weight will be indicated. The max gross weight of car added to max tow weight may well be different to max gross train weight. All that matters is that none of those figures are exceeded.


But which figure is correct? The weight on the car plate, or the advertised towing limit as defined in the V5 for, and the car handbook/literature?

I appreciate the police/VOSA will probably use plated weights.

All this makes the 85% rule a bit of a nonsense.


Personbilly
25/4/2015 at 12:40pm
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The 85% 'rule' is just saying that it is advisable for trailer to be somewhat lighter than towing vehicle which makes sense but has no basis in law. Sometimes max tow weight of car + max gross weight of car can be more than gross train weight of car, sometimes less, usually its the same. It depends on engine power. Max tow is arrived at by hill start ability, just a technical figure, it is not related to gtw that must not be exceeded.

As for your question about noseweight, it is only an issue for safe loading of caravan & not an issue that relates to actual law enforcement unless it is so excessive it overloads car back axle. If you are pulled all that will matter is that axle weights are not exceeded & that gross train weight of car is not exceeded.

If you want to find the weight of your caravan drive outfit to weighbridge, weigh outfit. Drive away from weighbridge, unhitch caravan, drive back & weigh car, subtract one from 'tother & you have weight of caravan. If not over mtplm then ok.

Separately your licence might be checked to ensure you are licenced to drive that outfit, but one must remember that licence law & C&U law relating directly to vehicle max weights are separate issues.


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Personfreeatlast
25/4/2015 at 12:57pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Billy x on 25/4/2015The 85% 'rule' is just saying that it is advisable for trailer to be somewhat lighter than towing vehicle which makes sense but has no basis in law. Sometimes max tow weight of car + max gross weight of car can be more than gross train weight of car, sometimes less, usually its the same. It depends on engine power. Max tow is arrived at by hill start ability, just a technical figure, it is not related to gtw that must not be exceeded.

As for your question about noseweight, it is only an issue for safe loading of caravan & not an issue that relates to actual law enforcement unless it is so excessive it overloads car back axle. If you are pulled all that will matter is that axle weights are not exceeded & that gross train weight of car is not exceeded.

If you want to find the weight of your caravan drive outfit to weighbridge, weigh outfit. Drive away from weighbridge, unhitch caravan, drive back & weigh car, subtract one from 'tother & you have weight of caravan. If not over mtplm then ok.

Separately your licence might be checked to ensure you are licenced to drive that outfit, but one must remember that licence law & C&U law relating directly to vehicle max weights are separate issues.


Clearly not understood my original post. All of the above is irrelevant. I know how much the caravan weighs. I know perfectly well what I can tow with my licence. I know perfectly well the towing limits of my car engine. etc.


PersonOnewheelonmywagon
25/4/2015 at 1:01pm
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There are normally two plated weights on a caravan - the chassis manufacturer's axle plate, and the van manufacturer's MTPLM plate.
The axle plate could well be in excess of the MTPLM plate, but the latter is the limit that the van manufacturer applies to their construction on that particular chassis.


Personfreeatlast
25/4/2015 at 1:04pm
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The two plates on mine are both Bailey and on the caravan not the chassis. The plated weight does not include the tow hitch weight.


PersonMotobiman
25/4/2015 at 1:09pm
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How can you exclude the actual vertical load on the towball from the actual weight of the caravan? That's silly.

You can deduct the car weight from the total on a platform weighbridge to get the caravan actual weight but not on an axle weighed type.

On an axle weigher if you don't unhitch you are not weighing the whole caravan and must add any vertical load on the towball to the caravan axle weight.

If you do unhitch you would have to add the weight on the jockey wheel.

I was surprised to find my Knaus on the axle scale was 1510kgs so with the 65kgs vertical towball weight it is 75kgs over its plated max weight of 1500kgs and that with only a weeks clothes and stuff and no awning.

Gonna have to get some stuff into the car ........

Post last edited on 25/04/2015 13:17:04

Post last edited on 25/04/2015 13:17:40

Post last edited on 25/04/2015 13:22:20

Post last edited on 25/04/2015 13:22:51


PersonMotobiman
25/4/2015 at 1:20pm
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PS

Any downward load on the towball will increase the load on the car rear axle and decrease the front axle load but not by the same amount of course.


CCW moments = ACW moments about the rear axle.


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Personbilly
25/4/2015 at 2:45pm
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The pedants are overthinking this. It is self evident that if you put caravan on its own on a weighbridge then that will be the weight of the caravan. Just don't exceed mtplm.

However, all that matters is that axle weights & gross train weight are not exceeded, if you are stopped then you will be either weighed on an axle weigher or a full weighbridge. To avoid any overload one just needs to leave a margin & not attempt to load to the maximum.

If you are stopped & weighed it may well be because your outfit looks overweight, so avoid an overloaded outfit by towing suitable caravan with suitable car, how hard is that?

Instead of pointless arguments over 85% etc, just allow good sense to prevail & leave a sensible margin, ie if the outfit looks ok, then it probably is. If you are worried that you might be overweight then you are probably too close to the limit anyway.

The object of the exercise is a relaxed tow to a relaxed holiday not worrygutting over a few kg.


Personmoppetsdad
25/4/2015 at 3:45pm
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You're a tryer Billy x I'll give you that mate I'd have given up trying ages ago after all it's not rocket science is it and simpler than most are trying to make it.    

-------------
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I've stood on Lego and didn't even cry!!


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Having read this thread 3 times now, I suggest the OP goes back to his school days and thinks about his physics lessons and "Moments of Inertia" in respect of his nose weight.


PersonMotobiman
25/4/2015 at 6:39pm
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Quote: Originally posted by moppetsdad on 25/4/2015
You're a tryer Billy x I'll give you that mate I'd have given up trying ages ago after all it's not rocket science is it and simpler than most are trying to make it.    


But you can't weigh the whole caravan on an axle weigher because the jockey wheel is not on the axle weigher and some of the load is on it.

If you use an axle weigher you have to take the weight on the jockey wheel into account and add it to the axle weight if you want the TOTAL caravan weight..

For clarity and for the last time. The total weight of the caravan is the axle weight PLUS the nose weight.


Personbilly
25/4/2015 at 7:18pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Motobiman on 25/4/2015
The total weight of the caravan is the axle weight PLUS the nose weight.

Yes that is correct, as pointed out in my first post.

'The gross weight or mtplm of a caravan is max allowable weight of just the caravan as weighed unhitched on weighbridge'.

I also pointed out 'or you can drive outfit over an axle weigher. the sum total of the axle weights will be different to entire weight of outfit on weighbridge but none of these weights must exceed individual axle weights & entire weight must not exceed vehicle max train weight'.

Provided no matter how you do it, max weights of anything are not exceeded then you are ok.


PersonMotobiman
25/4/2015 at 7:41pm
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Christ at last we agree on something, the first bit.

We don't agree on the second bit .... the total of the three axle weights taken on an axle weigher WILL be the same as the total of the car and caravan weighed seperately on a plate weigh-bridge.

This is because the nose weight component is included in the car front and rear axle readings.

Positive at the rear and negative at the front.



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