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Subject Topic: Caravan stability (Topic Closed Topic Closed)
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PersonJohnMW
27/3/2016 at 4:21pm
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Hi
I am a retired qualified Transport engineer and and for the past 5 years have been developing a system that I have perfected and used on a single axle around France in conditions that would test any caravan outfit to the limits. I call it a "Differential Stability Device" Nothing has been produced for A frame Caravans like this before now - It is revolutionary. It will stop snaking before it starts, It will prevent jackknifing in all but very extreme cases - nothing is 100%. It does not rely on any electronics or electrical connections to operate and it is fail safe. It can be retrospectively fitted to any overrun brake system by most competent DIY person.

I have had cameras and and monitoring devices fitted to log events and have amassed lots of data. The success of the overrun brake principle is why it is still used today on the majority of caravans under 3.5 Tonnes. I can produce this add on in stainless steel components for under £150. It works on the principle of controlling the caravan by actuating the individual brakes to steer the van rather than brake it in the event of a potential snake or jackknife - this principle is used on aircraft and agricultural tractors - even wheelchairs. The key to applying this principle is how it is controlled and this is what I have perfected. Though I have offered this to the likes of ALKO and BPW none have answered my correspondence to view it and I have offered to go head to head on any trials against their systems.

I am not in a position to patent or produce this so the only way to market this is for some organisation to take it on. If this system is not implemented soon then I agree the A frame system is numbered because current Friction dampers and Electronic devices do NOT work fully - they only assist to a point.

It is up to the Users now to put pressure on the Key players to act. There is no excuse for not having my device fitted as standard. I will answer any comments except how it does the sensing.

Caravans are the most unstable form of trailers on the road unlike HGVs but even the latter still have issues that to this day have not been solved. Jackknifing is one of these and Caravans are no exception. Four wheel caravans are more likely to jackknife than single axle by the very nature that the weight is not transferred to the tow vehicle ball as quickly when braking and soon take control of the rear end of the tow vehicle if they are not perfectly aligned. I studied Artic combinations for 20 years and the same issue occurs when the load is not over the king pin or the load sensing is not correct.

John Wilson


Personrobert/julie
27/3/2016 at 4:53pm
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Just a thought if you are unable to patent it or produce it yourself have you thought about going on Dragons den and trying to get an investor


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PersonJohnMW
27/3/2016 at 5:49pm
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Quote: Originally posted by robert/julie on 27/3/2016
Just a thought if you are unable to patent it or produce it yourself have you thought about going on Dragons den and trying to get an investor

Hi
Thanks for your reply. Over the years I have gone the patent route on other things and the experience has taught me lessons - better putting the huge amount of money on the lottery. As for DD they first of all will not entertain ideas unless it has already been through the rigors of a patent application and they only consider a share in a venture already well into.

Mean while here we have a situation where a real problem exists that can be avoided but for the skeptics who think nothing so simple can work where others have failed. Some things are put out to scam people or mislead them so people are right to question, I get that but why do companies refuse to simply take a look and decide eludes me.

Instances where this device has literally saved us from disaster have surprised even myself with 40 years in the transport industry. Whilst travelling along a busy single track road in South of France we were faced with a Police Car responding to a call on the opposite side of the road pulled out in front of us with no warning, at 40 mph swerving to one side would normally resulted in jackknife and the very least uncontrolled lateral snake with a 45 degree angle of the caravan. Our car simply handled it as if it was just the car on it's own. The caravan followed every action without hesitation and lined up immediately. Just to add that my car is fitted with EPS that does assist the car in correction of such an event but often this is overwhelmed when towing a van because the van counters the effect. My system enables the van to look after itself.

regards
John


Post last edited on 27/03/2016 17:54:08


PersonGrampian91
27/3/2016 at 10:49pm
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Intrigued on how this will work. Applying the brakes fast enough to prevent a snake.


Does your tow vehicle have trailer control or similar? May need to give that a bit more credit for your rapid braking situation? Car and Van at 45 degrees?

Intrigued... Tell us more...

Without electronics the standard braking is in the dark ages and not exactly quick to respond. Maybe we need to move onto electrical assited braking? With the overrun as a safety backup?


PersonPaul B
28/3/2016 at 9:35am
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2 potential options come to mind. First to to create some interest via the caravan club for instance. If their technical team are satisfied that it all works that would give you some great independently backed publicity.

Second option is to convince insurance companies of its worth so that they give a discount on the premium with your system fitted.

Of course as soon as you go public in this way, you're vulnerable to someone stealing your ideas! I would have thought you need to get that patent progressed!


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PersonJohnMW
28/3/2016 at 11:56am
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Hi
To answer the two post in one: There have been many details to consider with this project and I will only disclose the parts that I consider may not be patent able. First I have disclosed this on the Caravan Club forum and also to the technical team who have not objected to the publicity.

Speaking from the dark age of technical innovation and I am one who has striven throughout my career for electronic advancement/progression - indeed my son has an electronic Degree,however, there are no electronic equipment to include connectors and switches robust enough to withstand the rigors of exposure on vehicles today.
Since the vast majority of A Frame caravans are on overrun brakes and incorporate auto reversing the move to a different braking system to incorporate electronic integration to achieve what is involved with individual wheel braking rules out this option on cost basis - though not impossible to do. Drum brakes generate just the right amount of amplification required for a small input and the design has to apply this input only when a specific angular velocity occurs otherwise it would be activated on every turn. When this velocity is achieved, as it would in the event of impending snake or jackknife the appropriate brake is applied to correct the lateral velocity and it does this without having to wait for any sensor to tell it what is happening and then need apply an electric motor. Also my innovation self regulates the amount of brake effort so that it does not try to slow down the combination to stop the offending snake. The main overrun brakes act in a similar way and proportion the effort required.
The ADDON does not affect the main brakes in any way. In addition to the aforementioned features there is a unique arrangement that controls minor sway and vertical pitch to reduce instability on the tow car that no friction device can do efficiently. This device has been run on my van for three years and every detail has been recorded using cameras and logging devices and I will demonstrate this to any organisation that shows interest.
I would address the 45 degree comment by highlighting the fact that this occurs in fractions of a second and during that period the van is already pulling the cars tail back in line assisted of course by ESP and driver competence. Many thanks for your replies, you do realize I don't want to give to much away just yet - a few crumbs would be nice to reward me for the huge amount of work I spent on it.

John


PersonKelper
28/3/2016 at 2:19pm
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Where can I buy it?


Personnavver
28/3/2016 at 8:39pm
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Alko have spent a lot on developing their electronic system so I can't see them doing anything to reduce sales for that. No doubt similarly BPW.

Is your system something that can easily be retro fitted in which case you could market it for owner fitting. This would be a different sector of the market.


PersonSparktwinkle
28/3/2016 at 8:49pm
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Dear john


Why not hit up the middle man, the sales teams for buying repairing servicing caravans ?
Or go direct to the RSMs of your preferred manufacturer.
Sometimes when you speak to directly to the r & d of well known manufacturers, it's that talking directly to technical support or service is the way to get a foot in the door with much needed clout
Every company out there in the world of production are always in need of an edge, a locked protocol so to speak, exclusivity etc

Good luck and I wish you well on this x x x


PersonJohnMW
28/3/2016 at 10:22pm
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Hi
To answer your kind suggestions: I have written most of the major caravan manufacturers and even Bulldog and Millenco and offered them a chance to take a look at this without any commitment to take it on and no NDAs involved but they do not even answer my Emails- some I have contacted twice with different invitations.

I do not think I am asking to much to suggest they pay me a small royalty if they proceed with any undertaking and the first to view will be the only one because I will lose any chance of a patent once it goes public. I have invented lots of things that people just copy with no thanks and certainly no reward. I have spent thousands of pounds on patents that work but are not taken up or someone bends the design to counter them and you need deep pockets to sue.
I have been in business for 30 years and have a great deal of experience in sales and marketing but
getting a prototype to market requires lots of cash and roll of the dice.

I have kept this one under close wraps where ever we have gone - people become very curious if they could see something different - it's very hard. I listen to many people on our travels across Europe who have had very close near death encounters with vans when towing, that is what drove me to develop this - it's what I do well at.
Sparktwinkle is quite right and this is another way I'm trying to get some attention - through the users.

On the ATC/iDC I applaud the contribution but in my opinion is a waste of money on the principle that trying to stop/slow a 3.5 tonne combination with two/four wheels of a trailer in seconds to counter a snaking/jackknife issue is daft because it does not stop it occurring in the first place.

Regards
John

Post last edited on 28/03/2016 22:39:36


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PersonGrampian91
28/3/2016 at 11:54pm
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Without some form of type approval and tests you cannot legally fit it though can you?

A bit of s stumbling block, where you need to invest a fair chunk but whilst your doing that you find something else has just come out and its far cheaper with similar results.

Curious as to what you have invented, prevents snaking before it happens, no electrical system.

Doesnt yours apply the brakes in the same way the ATC system works though? Its still using the caravans brakes to prevent the sway?

Will your system work on old cars with no stability control?


Personnaturlist123
29/3/2016 at 1:30pm
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If you have had this on your own rig for three years and fully confident in it.
Why don't you approach Practical Caravans to test your rig,They test all tow vehicles and caravans a new on road and track sudden swerves ETC over taking on motorways also.. If you kit is as good as you say they will say so ,be prepared for all pro,s and con,s If they really like it they will say so and endorse it. You will have to have a manufacturing cost this will also be deciding factore how much it cost you to make and fit your own rig. Good luck in your hopeful support and manufacture.


PersonJTQU
29/3/2016 at 4:22pm
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What has been your caravan insurer's take on the device and their risk in underwriting your van with it fitted; assuming you have insured and declared the modification?

With my ATC they are giving a premium discount.


PersonJohnMW
29/3/2016 at 4:23pm
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Hi
As yet type approvals will be ratified in 2018 but I understand only for new trailers and modifications to them if it makes any changes to the approved detail.

At the moment any fitment must be fit for purpose and not contravene any construction and use regulations.

To this end I have thoroughly tested my device and monitored every aspect of the application and I am more than confident it would pass any approvals by any authority. There are obviously skeptics who THINK this will not work because of this or that - I can assure all of these it will be one of those things people will say "Why did I not think of that before".

Remember once I disclose it to "Anyone" I lose the Patent rights that at the moment I can offer to a prospective interested party. Take a peep at the image I posted by right clicking it to view in another tab.
I can say with 95% certainty this would not have occurred if it had my device fitted.
This will work with vehicles not fitted with ESP but it will work better with it - ESP covers the tow car stability and some late model cars even have a trailer sense built in that just alters the ESP to try and take account of a trailer BUT even ESP relies on a driver to do the corrective actions - turn into skid etc - it is not fool proof.
My device is so simple you would be stunned at what it does - I would love to let someone lose with it but where is my reward - I am retired and not a philanthropist. I will listen to any suggestions or offers.

John


PersonJohnMW
29/3/2016 at 4:35pm
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Hi

Some posts on other sites tend to suggest I should not be using this on my van and is it legal to do so - the answer is it must be fit for purpose and not pose a risk to others. Who in there wisdom rubber stamped a device that slows a combination down without warning and in some instances, when it hits a bump in the road?

These comments reflect why there is no advancement to safety until many lives are lost. We have gone to the dustbin in this country because of bureaucracy. So just now despite the feeble offerings on caravan stability they just blame driver error or some other reason.
Regards
John


PersonJohnMW
29/3/2016 at 4:53pm
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Curious as to what you have invented, prevents snaking before it happens, no electrical system.

Doesnt yours apply the brakes in the same way the ATC system works though? Its still using the caravans brakes to prevent the sway?

Hi
I bet you are curious to know because there is nothing offered yet that can do this with some certainty until now. ATC/iDC senses the lateral sway for up to four sways and two sways over a specific g force, only then does it act by applying both brakes to slow a 3.5tonne combination, in other words the combination is already
in trouble. My device does use the brakes but individually dependent upon the direction of sway and this works by preventing the sway occurring in the first place in much the same way that the main overrun
work - as weight comes on the brakes apply and pull the van back proportionately - you don't feel it. This is what my device does but laterally.

Your caravan mover is a classic example of steering with the wheels by driving, mine does it by braking.

Regards
John



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