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peter1474

04/4/2017 at 6:21pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Mick S. on 04/4/2017

Quote: Originally posted by navver on 03/4/2017

Two cables joined by a plug and socket are accessible to small children who can stick their fingers in the hole. Not nice.

Why would you let your kids play with electric cables? Everybodys fault but the person responsible for them (if it happened). Whats to stop them cutting, chewing or pulling it out of the socket, if they are free to do as they wish - joint or no joint.

Exactly Mick, folk have been joining the cables for years. And not child been harmed to my knowledge.
Looks like the H+S lot have joined the forum.
Glad I don't go to the sites they go to, must spend all their time tut tutting folk like me that enjoy vanning and do not care what others are doing as long as they are enjoying themselves as well.

btw, where the heck is a hole once the connection is made and why would his kids be on my pitch anyroads. My kids were always told stay away from other vans unless invited and on no account touch anything your not supposed to. Amazingly they understood and now have their own kids. Funny that.

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Peter and CofSD (Anne)

John4703

04/4/2017 at 8:08pm
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Quote: Originally posted by navver on 03/4/2017
Two cables joined by a plug and socket are accessible to small children who can stick their fingers in the hole. Not nice.

The cover that was suggested has a padlock included so children cannot get into it.
As a comment on danger I remember working in a house and the owners dog was a pest, it chewed the lead to my power tools, the RCCD tripped before it got badly hurt but not before it got a fright and made a real mess on the floor. I managed to hide the cost of a new lead in my bill. That dog avoided me ever after :-)

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We camped for years. In 2019 we bought an Elddis Avante 454. We like it as it is short (6.9m) and fits in our driveway and has a fixed bed.
We had 127 nights away in the caravan in 2023.

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saxo1

05/4/2017 at 4:47pm
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The Caravan club site rules say that joints are not allowed to comply with the regs.
I say again if you need to join 2 cables because the site owner hasn't complied with the regs can you be sure that the rest of the site electrics are up to scratch?
I worked with Electricity all my working life and the ones who had a cavalier attitude to safety rules didn't tend too last long!
saxo1

Grampian91

05/4/2017 at 5:32pm
Location: Midlands
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With electricity there is always a risk. A child could unplug the extension and stick their fingers in, well yes. But they could also unplug from the caravan and stick their fingers in. Or they could goto the main post and stick their fingers in also.

A cheap 25M lead could have more resistance than a decent quality 50M lead. Often people wont even know the quality of their cables. Plug it in and it works.

Without proper test equipment to measure the voltage drop or any heating of the cables under load the average user will be oblivious.

Ray Clayton

05/4/2017 at 5:55pm
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The Regs state.

The connecting flexible cable

The means of connecting the caravan to the pitch socket-outlet should be provided with the caravan. This must have a plug at one end complying with BS EN 60309-2 and a flexible cable with a continuous length of 25 m (±2 m). The connecting flexible cable must be in one length, without signs of damage, not contain joints or other means to increase its length, and have a connector, if needed, that is compatible with the appropriate appliance inlet. The cable should be to the harmonized code H05RN-F (BS EN 50525-2-21) or equivalent, include a protective conductor, have cores coloured as required by Table 51 of BS 7671:2008+A3:2015 and have a cross-sectional area as shown in Table 7.1 of BS 7671:2008+A3:2015.

Does not state a min or max length.

-------------
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Ray

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Ray Clayton

05/4/2017 at 6:06pm
Location: Ilkeston. Derbyshire
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And if you look at regs

6.4.3 - BS EN 60309-1 (BS 4343) socket outlet circuits

Plugs and sockets to BS EN 60309-1 are for industrial applications and are rated at 16 A, 32 A, 63 A and 125 A. All but the smallest size must be wired on a separate circuit, but 16 A outlets may be wired in unlimited numbers on radial circuits where diversity can be justified. However, since the maximum rating for the protective device is 20 A, the number of sockets will be small except where loads are very light or where it is certain that few loads will be connected simultaneously. An arrangement of BS EN 60309-2 plugs and sockets is shown in {Fig 6.9}.

2 cables can be used.

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Ray

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saxo1

05/4/2017 at 6:31pm
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.Quote"Does not state a min or max length"
I think you will find it does!
"This must have a plug at one end complying with BS EN 60309-2 and a flexible cable with a continuous length of 25 m (±2 m)
saxo1

RedFraggle1973

05/4/2017 at 7:03pm
Location: North Yorkshire
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Ray Clayton

05/4/2017 at 7:19pm
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Going by that then, you cant have a shorter cable or longer than 25m.

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Ray

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saxo1

05/4/2017 at 7:42pm
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Stupid question perhaps but what legislation makes that aspect of that BS law if it is? For it to be law a statutory instrument would have to make it so. British or international standards aren't law until legislation makes them so.

It isn't a legal regulation,it hasn't been suggested that it is!
In the event of an accident then non compliance with the regulations would be used in a court of law to demonstrate that an individual had acted irresponsibly and could be held accountable.
If a child were to receive an electric shock by interfering with a joint in a hookup cable then the person who had installed that cable would be guilty of disregarding the safety regs laid down in BS 7671 and could be prosecuted for endangering life.
I personally don't sit around tut tutting at what others do I couldn't care less if someone electrocutes themselves due to their stupidity.
I only posted the correct procedure so that anyone who may be unaware of the regs can choose to comply or ignore it,not accept the irresponsible statements that it is perfectly acceptable.
saxo1

navver

05/4/2017 at 8:21pm
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continuous length of 25 m (±2 m)

The bit in brackets is saying plus or minus 2m. That is a tolerance on the length so it may be minimum length of 23m and maximum length of 27m.

Electricity is very dangerous and maybe we professionals who work with it do too good a job of keeping people safe. I am seeing a lot of complacency here.

The British regulations are among the finest in the world and, correctly applied, ensure safety for millions. That safety only works because there are several tiers of safety precautions any one of which will probably go unnoticed by the user if it is breached, but 2 or 3 being breached may result in death or serious injury. Just like a road accident will only happen if 2 or 3 things go wrong. Rounding a corner on the wrong side of the road needs a car coming in the opposite direction to cause an accident.

All those tiers of safety requirements have to be very carefully co-ordinated to ensure everything works together as it should. Everything relies on everything else. Adding additional impedance into the circuit by using a longer lead can mean that co-ordination may no longer exist.

I am frustrated that professional engineers give the correct advice and people who know very little about electricity are saying bad practice is safe, presumably because they cannot see or understand the reason for something being bad practice.

I've seen people swallowing swords in the circus and people walking on tight ropes 50 feet above the ground and people climbing very high rock faces hundreds of feet above the ground. Does the fact I've seen done it mean I can just go and do it and be perfectly safe?

Ray Clayton

05/4/2017 at 8:58pm
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I never said anything about bad practice?
As for the (±2 m)i am aware of what it means.

Only way i can see to get around it, if you wish to run a longer continuous length of cable above 25m. You would have to upgrade to 4mm or 6mm cable depending on overall length required.
Assuming that the 25m is the max safe length of running 16amp in 2.5 cable.
(cant be bothered to get my book out and work it out)

I run 30amps 100' to my garage on 6mm armoured cable.
From main fuse box, to another fuse box in the garage.
Well within the regs. In fact overkill, but cable cost me nothing.
A guy next door runs 13 amps down on 2 core 1.5 lighting cable.
Waiting to see it melt one day lol.

As for work am a bakery and catering engineer, and seen guys turn up that can't even fault find on 3 phase, and also start working on certain deck ovens not knowing there is also another Permanent live going to them.

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Cheers
Ray

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chris dine

05/4/2017 at 10:00pm
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Think I'm glad I asked

Think I'll just buy a big gas bottle and torches

Cheers

-------------
Its great to soar like an eagle ...........but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

saxo1

05/4/2017 at 10:18pm
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It isn't only about volt drop and current carrying capacity it is also about the earth fault loop impedance.

Quote "Assuming that the 25m is the max safe length of running 16amp in 2.5 cable."

A 2.5mm cable must be capable of carrying !.45 times the MCB's rated current carrying capacity for up to an hour.

The length and size of cable is specified to cope with the worst case scenario to allow enough fault current to flow to operate the protection in the required time to minimise the possible rise in potential to a dangerous level.
saxo1

Mick S.

06/4/2017 at 12:57pm
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Just like we dont see wheel-less caravans all over the roads because they havent torqued their nuts that day; how many electrocuted caravanners has anyone here ever found on a site they've been on? None? Well maybe the cables and connections they have been using arent exactly the death traps they are suggested they could be! Of course you have to be careful with leccy, but its common sense, just like at home.
On the flip side, how many folk here have got adaptors with half a dozen outlets out of the one socket feeding their tv/dvd player/skybox/router/music player etc. etc etc., in their homes??

chris dine

06/4/2017 at 4:47pm
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Guys

am really appreciative of all your comments and all very helpful,

however this has turned into a "my dads bigger than your dad" and a mud slinging shoot out,

suggest we close this topic and whoever needs to close this down does so, as its just getting messy and off topic

thanks everyone
Chris

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Its great to soar like an eagle ...........but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

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